A win for the 1st amendment

[Ms Tree]

Supreme Court OKs Protests at Military Funerals

While I cannot stand Phelps and their vile actions I am glad that the SCOTUS ruled the way they did. Either freedom is protected for all, or it is not. We cannot pick and choose the speech that we agree to. I do not think Alito get's it. I am glad he was the sole dissenter.

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[SparrowHawk]

Supreme Court OKs Protests at Military Funerals

While I cannot stand Phelps and their vile actions I am glad that the SCOTUS ruled the way they did. Either freedom is protected for all, or it is not. We cannot pick and choose the speech that we agree to. I do not think Alito get's it. I am glad he was the sole dissenter.

If you have not already done so, please go here to help out the Patriot Guard Riders

Your post and the SCOTUS ruling point out what many Demicans and Republicrats fail to grasp. When you limit the right to free speech for a Reverend Phelps or prevent the Nai Party from marching in Skokie, IL that you in turn diminish the freedom and liberty we all enjoy.

This is why to my mind there is no such thing as "Hate Speech"

 

[Ms Tree]

I think there is hate speech and I think there are hate crimes. I am not sure how the law defines it. I see hate speech as speech that advocates the harm of another based on race, gender, religion .. etc. I realize it is not enforceable as it is too much of a gray area. I think the KKK and the Nazi's participate in hate speech. Having said that, I had some really intense arguments with my mother and father about the Nazi's in Skokie. Obviously the folks were dead set against it. I get that. I was for it. To limit their speech would be to limit mine as well.

I think the idea of hate crimes is much more evident how ever to me, the idea of hate crimes only applies to petty crimes. When a person is killed, it matters not why. They are dead and the person who did the killing should be penalized the same. How ever, if someone tags my house with a smiley face, should they receive the same punishment as someone who tags my house with a swastika? I see one as a simple 'destruction of property' issue and the other as a clear threat/intimidation/hate crime. I would not be scared of a smiley face on my house. P!issed yes, but not scared and I do not think the two crimes are in any way equal.

 

[delldude]

I think there is hate speech and I think there are hate crimes. I am not sure how the law defines it. I see hate speech as speech that advocates the harm of another based on race, gender, religion .. etc. I realize it is not enforceable as it is too much of a gray area. I think the KKK and the Nazi's participate in hate speech. Having said that, I had some really intense arguments with my mother and father about the Nazi's in Skokie. Obviously the folks were dead set against it. I get that. I was for it. To limit their speech would be to limit mine as well.

I think the idea of hate crimes is much more evident how ever to me, the idea of hate crimes only applies to petty crimes. When a person is killed, it matters not why. They are dead and the person who did the killing should be penalized the same. How ever, if someone tags my house with a smiley face, should they receive the same punishment as someone who tags my house with a swastika? I see one as a simple 'destruction of property' issue and the other as a clear threat/intimidation/hate crime. I would not be scared of a smiley face on my house. P!issed yes, but not scared and I do not think the two crimes are in any way equal.

You just proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that you do not support the first amendment.

 

[Ms Tree]

Sure, what ever you say.

 

[SparrowHawk]

Sure, what ever you say.

I get you point but honestly I think you're trying to split a very thin hair. To me at least Free Speech must be unencumbered from even a whiff of censorship. Therefore a great many things i find distasteful I must learn to tolerate.

 

[Ms Tree]

I saw this article and I am not sure how I feel about it. The anarchist part of me is thrilled that one of them got his butt kicked, some of them got picked up for questioning on bogus charges, and the rest had their cars blocked in. The law and order part is not very comfortable with how it was carried out and the fact that law enforcement was complicit in breaking (bending) the laws that they are sworn to up hold.

Westboro 0 Mississippi 1

A couple of days before, one of them (Westboro protestors) ran his mouth at a Brandon gas station and got his arse waxed. Police were called and the beaten man could not give much of a description of who beat him. When they canvassed the station and spoke to the large crowd that had gathered around, no one seemed to remember anything about what had happened.

Rankin County handled this thing perfectly. There were many things that were put into place that most will never know about and at great expense to the county.

Most of the morons never made it out of their hotel parking lot. It seems that certain Rankin county pickup trucks were parked directly behind any car that had Kansas plates in the hotel parking lot and the drivers mysteriously disappeared until after the funeral was over. Police were called but their wrecker service was running behind and it was going to be a few hours before they could tow the trucks so the Kansas plated cars could get out.

A few made it to the funeral but were ushered away to be questioned about a crime they might have possibly been involved in. Turns out, after a few hours of questioning, that they were not involved and they were allowed to go on about their business.

 

[SparrowHawk]

I saw this article and I am not sure how I feel about it. The anarchist part of me is thrilled that one of them got his butt kicked, some of them got picked up for questioning on bogus charges, and the rest had their cars blocked in. The law and order part is not very comfortable with how it was carried out and the fact that law enforcement was complicit in breaking (bending) the laws that they are sworn to up hold.

Westboro 0 Mississippi 1

The initiation of force is always wrong. They should not have beat up on the guy.

The pickup truck blockade is easily justified as a non violent expression of one groups opinion. This type of thing is pretty much guaranteed under the 1st Amendment.

As to the "Rounding up" of the Westboro folks. Was there not an an unsolved crime against one of their members? So it would be perfectly appropriate for law enforcement to question any potential suspects as well as witnesses. After all if you or I were mugged we'd want the police to do everything in their power to bring those responsible to justice.

The fact that the police in their tireless efforts to bring the person or persons who assaulted the church member to justice caused some members to miss a social event is unfortunate. If they had done nothing the church could have and would have likely filed suit.

 

[delldude]

The right to hate is Constitutionally protected in as much as it is an expression much as yours to get upon a pedestal and defend gay rights.

I can hate gays as much as you love them....end of story.

Case in point, one hates God because of historical issues to ones ancestors.....this is that persons freedom of expression which is covered under the COTUS.

Don't you just hate these legal things?

 

[Ms Tree]

The right to hate is Constitutionally protected in as much as it is an expression much as yours to get upon a pedestal and defend gay rights.

I can hate gays as much as you love them....end of story.

Case in point, one hates God because of historical issues to ones ancestors.....this is that persons freedom of expression which is covered under the COTUS.

Don't you just hate these legal things?

I have no idea what point you are attempting to make.

 

[Ms Tree]

Interesting.

I have the least amount of problems with the ass whooping. I agree that the use of force in this case is whole unjustified but I take solace in the fact that as far as we can tell from this article, no law enforcement was involved. Just civilians who are all playing dumb as to who did what.

Yes the parking of the cars could be viewed as a expression of ones opinion but it was in violation of the law. The fact that the tow trucks were busy is a bit of a issue. Not sure who trucks were busy. If they were private contractors then I guess maybe they have the right to refuse service.

The article does not indicate what crime they may have been involved in. I think they may put them at the most risk of a law suit. The article seemed to indicate that there were no witnesses to the beating so not sure how the family could be suspected (reasonably) and detained. Perhaps there were other crimes that were reported and people thought they saw some of these Westboro folks doing the deed? I hope no one lied on an affidavit.

Like I said, these folks are nut jobs but as I recall, two or three of them are lawyers and judging from the case they won, they are not bad ones. I would not be surprised if we do not see this in the courts some time.

 

[SparrowHawk]

Interesting.

I have the least amount of problems with the ass whooping. I agree that the use of force in this case is whole unjustified but I take solace in the fact that as far as we can tell from this article, no law enforcement was involved. Just civilians who are all playing dumb as to who did what.

Deep Down at the gut level I too am glad that someone opened up a fresh can of Whoop Ass on the guy. To bad they're weren't more of of them beaten. However despite my wishful thinking it's still wrong. The guy that mouthed of had a classic case of Battleship mouth and rowboat ass.

Yes the parking of the cars could be viewed as a expression of ones opinion but it was in violation of the law. The fact that the tow trucks were busy is a bit of a issue. Not sure who trucks were busy. If they were private contractors then I guess maybe they have the right to refuse service.

Most jurisdictions contract out towing to local companies, many with only one or 2 trucks. Now let's be candid here. I operate a tow truck and I know a fallen hero is being laid to rest and I get a call to remove a truck (likely a neighbor) so that people can go picket a funeral service am I going to turn the work down? NO! Am I going to drive the speed limit, stop for coffee and a snack? YEP

The article does not indicate what crime they may have been involved in. I think they may put them at the most risk of a law suit. The article seemed to indicate that there were no witnesses to the beating so not sure how the family could be suspected (reasonably) and detained. Perhaps there were other crimes that were reported and people thought they saw some of these Westboro folks doing the deed? I hope no one lied on an affidavit.

They might be from MS but they aren't stupid. Remember they've had years of practice denying civil rights and getting away with it.

Like I said, these folks are nut jobs but as I recall, two or three of them are lawyers and judging from the case they won, they are not bad

The locals ran the risk of being sued either way IMO, so given that they acted in a manner they deemed appropriate

 

[Ms Tree]

I hope they do not get sued. I have to admire their balls. I am still uncomfortable with law enforcements involvement in this, at least as described by the article. Things like this make me think of Pastor Martin Niemöller poem. Yes it's nice when it happens to people we can all agree had it coming to them. The problem is when it happens to you or me or ....??? I see it as a first step on a path best not traveled. I hope this is a one time event not to be repeated ... at least not be law enforcement. Should some civilians decided to give some Westboro some 'lernin'. Well so be it.

 

[SparrowHawk]

I hope they do not get sued. I have to admire their balls. I am still uncomfortable with law enforcements involvement in this, at least as described by the article. Things like this make me think of Pastor Martin Niemöller poem. Yes it's nice when it happens to people we can all agree had it coming to them. The problem is when it happens to you or me or ....??? I see it as a first step on a path best not traveled. I hope this is a one time event not to be repeated ... at least not be law enforcement. Should some civilians decided to give some Westboro some 'lernin'. Well so be it.

Deep down we knew that one day the Westboro folks would get their ass handed to them. It wasn't an if it was a when. The law enforcement issue and the slippery slope argument has merit based on what we know from the story.

This clearly was a local police force and some of them frighten me as they are often highly politicized. Let's hope this was a once and done thing.

 

[xUT]

I have the least amount of problems with the ass whooping. I agree that the use of force in this case is whole unjustified but I take solace in the fact that as far as we can tell from this article, no law enforcement was involved. Just civilians who are all playing dumb as to who did what.

That was the KKK stance in the south. Neither is acceptable.
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