I get angry when people say AMFA 'raided' ..WE at NWA WENT TO THEM! Did your hear that? The IAM brought back a totally substandard contract for us and we at that time were enjoying the best times and they still brought back a #### contract. Thats when we overwhelmingly signed cards to get new representation. Now that said yea AMFA was a little too arrogant. But at the time pre 9/11 in 2001 they were able to secure a 24 percent raise for the membership My retirement with the IAM was 40 dollars per month per yrs. of service and stayed that way for a loooooong time. They (IAM) in the best of times came back with a 60 dollar per month yr of service. AMFA in it's very first contract got us 85 dollars per month not to mention most members got atleast a 7 dollar an hr raise. Our problem was it was short lived since 9/11 came several months later and NWA as well as other airlines used that to circumnavigate contract language. Bottom line NW did not want a militant union on the property and pulled out all the stops to make sure it happened not to mention the IAM would never support us (no surprise there) But using that term 'raider' bothers me let me ask you something what do you call the IAM soliciting a card drive at UAL when they had AMFA now the Teamsters? Talk about hypocrisy at the top level. If the IAM had done it's job we would not have went out of our way to seek new representation..Same with TWU which I consider to be far worse than the IAM ever was.
"AMP"' level of rEpreSEntaTion....?
- Thread starter High Speed Steel
- Start date
eolesen
Veteran
- Jul 23, 2003
- 15,988
- 9,428
If you say so. But don't overlook the fact that you just saw Sam Cirri elected in 514, so apathy seems to be alive and well at least in TUL.
Signing an authorization card is easy and can be done by hearing only one side of the story, and without fully thinking thru the ramifications. Don't get me wrong -- I see the forest thru the trees when it comes to the differences between the two organizations, but there will be people who fall for the fear, uncertainty and doubt rhetoric already flying, and I suspect some people who signed a card will simply not vote for either side because on election day, they're not sure which is the better of the two choices before them.
I can't count the times I've told fellow AMT's that signing a card is not a vote for AMP, or even AMFA back in the day. The ramifications for signing a card are not dire. It simply means the signee agrees it time to reaffirm who the members want to hire as their representative. Many are apathetic but truly believe their interests are not being represented. I believe well over 50% would make it a priority to vote.
“Bottom line NW did not want a Militant union (Association) on the property.” I remember how AMFA taunted that as their mantra, their militancy. Never negotiated a Concessionary contract was their hook. Their strength was not their numbers but their skill. They stood alone. It is no surprise when the AMFA took some of the IAM’s members that they received no support from the Ramp, Pilots, FAs or Agents. AMFA wanted help from AFL-CIO unions? Is the Sky blue where you come from? I understand the frustration and angst. The airlines did use 9-11. It was felt throughout the industry. But now is what we have to address. Based on the past, history doesn’t lie unless it is told by a liar, in this recession a standalone organization promising more than what is obtainable is the wrong path to follow.
Well on the contract 10000 out of 12000 voted. Does that look like an apathetic response? Many dont bother to vote in Local Elections because they know that in reality the International has control over the things that really matter.
Fear and uncertainty prevailing? Two out of every three voted against it despite the fact that they only heard the Internationals side with the ballott insert. Fear and uncertainty made a showing but it didnt prevail. While the insert didnt specifically say vote YES it included all the reasons, reinforced by subtle anecdotes meant to unstill fear and uncertainty, why they should, and left out the reasons why they shouldnt.
So is the membership apathetic or are they willing and waiting to be lead?
AMP has no history and it has made no such statements as "promising more than what is obtainable". What you are saying is the pilots and flight attendants are dismal failures?
OP
- Feb 14, 2004
- 1,375
- 136
- Thread Starter
- #127
Back to "AMp's leVEl oF rePreSEntaTion"... :blink:
It has already been defined that they "have no money"!
The members would lose all buildings and assets of the TWU's current Union Halls!
AMp would absorb all open grievances with no money or people with experience to process them!
The AMp has no structure, only a "self appointed" steering committee.
The membership would suffer while AMp stumbled over their own need to establish some form of leadership.
Then the membership would have to wait for the AMp to become educated on how to represent us with "No Money"...WTF?
""Now that the TA has been rejected they want to have our blessing to enter mediated negotiations""... :blink:
I hope the TWU represented membership is not that stupid.....
It has already been defined that they "have no money"!
The members would lose all buildings and assets of the TWU's current Union Halls!
AMp would absorb all open grievances with no money or people with experience to process them!
The AMp has no structure, only a "self appointed" steering committee.
The membership would suffer while AMp stumbled over their own need to establish some form of leadership.
Then the membership would have to wait for the AMp to become educated on how to represent us with "No Money"...WTF?
""Now that the TA has been rejected they want to have our blessing to enter mediated negotiations""... :blink:
I hope the TWU represented membership is not that stupid.....
TWU informer
Veteran
- Nov 4, 2003
- 7,550
- 3,767
It's really simple to find out. Just sign the cards, hold the electiion and allow the membership to decide.
This current internal strife over replacing the TWU is without a doubt continuation of the denial by NMB to allow the AMFA/TWU representation election. When the TWU/AA together inflated the eligibilty list and denied the election, that left those in oppoistion to the TWU including myself to conlcude that the TWU remained on the property by corrupt and unethical means. Why the hell would any organization go to such drastic means to deny a membership vote? FEAR that's why. If the TWU is confident they are the better structure, leadership, and that their history is worthy then why keep running from the vote.
The best thing for all of our futures is to sign the cards, hold the public debate, hold the election and everyone support whatever union the membership chooses. Get this over with and move on.
There is no way that telling Shop Stewards to rip down information, standing at the trunstiles telling members to throw away distributed material, and then inflating the list is going to equate to strength and create unity within the group.
The best thing to do is sign the cards, hold the election, and get this put to bed once and for all. When members are demanding this election and the current union on the property runs scared of their own record and does everything in its power to stop communication and stop any membership votes then the union is not gaining ground but going backwards. And I mean backwards beyond recovery!
I have nothing personally to do with the current campaign, but I do have my opinions. More than anything I want a strong democratic union that is by the members and for the members. If you are so convinced that this AMP idea is without merit and there are so many flaws in the Constitution then sign your card, have your friends sign their cards, call for the election and allow the membership to vote. If AMP wins then embrace the membership desire and let's make the best of that Constitution together. If the TWU wins, then hopefully Jim Little will see the importance of making significant changes in the TWU Constitution that places the membership in more control to stop further attacks on the "Good O'le Boy" system that has caused this dissention to begin with. There is only one way to unite this membership again. Sign the cards, hold the debate, and hold the election. Collectively the membership will do the right thing, regardless of mine or your personal opinon.
Otherwise, sit back and watch your current union run and hide, which weakens support and makes it appear incapable of overcoming a challenge. Watch the AMP supporters continue the challenge for the election to gain membership confirmation of a desired direction regarding representation. All the while consuimg time and resources that all of us would have used to gain protection and advancement of our careers at AA. Dont you get it yet? NO VOTE - NO PEACE aapitbull told the TWU this years ago and they have failed to listen to that warning.
It is the current TWU fear mongering tactics and inability to confidently stand on its record that fuels the opposition. The lies put out by TWU leaders attacking those that are challenging create more AMP organizers not less AMP supporters. Members are not ignorant and see twisted facts and lies and then they smell a rat. Poor TWU Leadership is fueling this card drive just as it did the AMFA Card Drive.
For the sake of everyone involved.
Real and Successful Union Leadership Woulld Man up - Sign your cards - Ask his membership to sign the Cards - Hold the real debates - And put this crap to bed so we can move on united!
Otherwise your comment to me today about Pain, Misery, and Suffering will become fact, because of our inability to unite around a direction. Let the members have their vote or we will all experience Pain, Misery, and Suffering my friend.
DO NOT FEAR A MEMBERSHIP VOTE, EMBRACE THE IDEA AND LET'S VOTE.
This current internal strife over replacing the TWU is without a doubt continuation of the denial by NMB to allow the AMFA/TWU representation election. When the TWU/AA together inflated the eligibilty list and denied the election, that left those in oppoistion to the TWU including myself to conlcude that the TWU remained on the property by corrupt and unethical means. Why the hell would any organization go to such drastic means to deny a membership vote? FEAR that's why. If the TWU is confident they are the better structure, leadership, and that their history is worthy then why keep running from the vote.
The best thing for all of our futures is to sign the cards, hold the public debate, hold the election and everyone support whatever union the membership chooses. Get this over with and move on.
There is no way that telling Shop Stewards to rip down information, standing at the trunstiles telling members to throw away distributed material, and then inflating the list is going to equate to strength and create unity within the group.
The best thing to do is sign the cards, hold the election, and get this put to bed once and for all. When members are demanding this election and the current union on the property runs scared of their own record and does everything in its power to stop communication and stop any membership votes then the union is not gaining ground but going backwards. And I mean backwards beyond recovery!
I have nothing personally to do with the current campaign, but I do have my opinions. More than anything I want a strong democratic union that is by the members and for the members. If you are so convinced that this AMP idea is without merit and there are so many flaws in the Constitution then sign your card, have your friends sign their cards, call for the election and allow the membership to vote. If AMP wins then embrace the membership desire and let's make the best of that Constitution together. If the TWU wins, then hopefully Jim Little will see the importance of making significant changes in the TWU Constitution that places the membership in more control to stop further attacks on the "Good O'le Boy" system that has caused this dissention to begin with. There is only one way to unite this membership again. Sign the cards, hold the debate, and hold the election. Collectively the membership will do the right thing, regardless of mine or your personal opinon.
Otherwise, sit back and watch your current union run and hide, which weakens support and makes it appear incapable of overcoming a challenge. Watch the AMP supporters continue the challenge for the election to gain membership confirmation of a desired direction regarding representation. All the while consuimg time and resources that all of us would have used to gain protection and advancement of our careers at AA. Dont you get it yet? NO VOTE - NO PEACE aapitbull told the TWU this years ago and they have failed to listen to that warning.
It is the current TWU fear mongering tactics and inability to confidently stand on its record that fuels the opposition. The lies put out by TWU leaders attacking those that are challenging create more AMP organizers not less AMP supporters. Members are not ignorant and see twisted facts and lies and then they smell a rat. Poor TWU Leadership is fueling this card drive just as it did the AMFA Card Drive.
For the sake of everyone involved.
Real and Successful Union Leadership Woulld Man up - Sign your cards - Ask his membership to sign the Cards - Hold the real debates - And put this crap to bed so we can move on united!
Otherwise your comment to me today about Pain, Misery, and Suffering will become fact, because of our inability to unite around a direction. Let the members have their vote or we will all experience Pain, Misery, and Suffering my friend.
DO NOT FEAR A MEMBERSHIP VOTE, EMBRACE THE IDEA AND LET'S VOTE.
Frank Szabo
Veteran
This has my attitude all along. If what the TWU has for sale can stand on its own merit, there's nothing for the TWU to fear from a representational election as it's presence on the property will have been affirmed as the best course of action for the membership.
Little Jimmy and minions have a short period of time to do the necessary permanent repairs to the TWU ATD by executive decree and then hope the present membership will buy it.
Judging from the number of those taking (and not tossing) the AMP literature (in TWU-placed trashcans) both coming in to work and leaving and leaving after their shift, I would say the TWU has plenty to worry about.
That's good - I'm not really a fan of switching horses in the middle of the river (or during negotiations - I use that word loosely). There are, however, many issues to be dealt with on a permanent basis re: the TWU's desire to remain bargaining agent for American's employees.
With the fact that the TA was voted down 2 to 1, that should let the TWU know that it isn't just TWU critics complaining about the TA. It seems like the AMP movement at ORD is picking up.
AMp would have "no money or people with experience to process them"?
We currently have in place MANY capable people with experience to process grievances. You seem to think that AMP will just replace all of our current people in leadership positions at the local level. I can only speak for myself here at AFW, but most people I know don't have any issues with our Local, they just feel like they are ham-strung by the International. I believe there wouldnt be a plethora of new faces from the top on down at AFW. Would a persons ability to lead "disappear" if the TWU were no longer its bargaining agent? I think not.
As far as the money, how much money in membership dues is collected monthly, quarterly, annually? Not a small amount by any means. The "growing pains" that would come with a new Union far outweigh the "benefits" of the concessionary contracts that we see every 5, 6 or 7 years.
You say "I hope the TWU membership is not that stupid..." it seems that YOU are the one doing just that. I just ask that you take a deep breath, and try to not be so fearful of change and have some confidence in the leadership abilities of MANY of our current leaders. The tone seems to be that our International is the sole proprietor of all knowledge and wisdom related to what is best for the membership...
Frank Szabo
Veteran
As I've said before, the flames of the "TA" weren't quite as bright as I'd like to have seen them, but they WERE bright enough to be seen in all the way up to New York City (home of crappy salsa and the TWU).
Another of the posted slogans - "Evolve or Dissolve" comes to mind - byhaps Chucky (Charles R. Darwin) was onto something bigger than he ever realized - ergo, his theory not applying only to life itself but peoples' organizations as well.
You've just gotta love how all these slogans and other history snippets seem to twist around and bite those who believe themselves to be in charge. The human race has left countless examples of what not to do, but it all keeps happening, time and time again.
There's nothing like a good comedy, even if one has seen the show before.
Just think - a comedy with Little Jimmy cast as Le Petomane - how fitting!
Frank Szabo
Veteran
Losing that would be cheap at twice the price considering what the TWU has cost its membership in the last 7 years.
OP
- Feb 14, 2004
- 1,375
- 136
- Thread Starter
- #134
Its obvious you don't know who the International is or from where the Staff of the International came from. These folks were former Local officers from throughout the system who advanced to the International based off of their performance from their Local elected positions. With what I gather from your post. You seem to be OK with your Local officers from AFW, right? You suggest that you want to retain them because they have good leadership skills, right?
Then why if they were to advance to positions within the International would you spit in their faces? Some within the Staff of the International are just former Local Officers from throughout the system that you don't have a problem with. They were noticed for their leadership abilities and offered advancements from what I can tell. So what is your point?
I looked up some of those from our seniority lists who are currently serving with the International and provided the numbers of those I found below.
Title I; about 3
Title II; about 2
Title III; about 4
Title V; 1
TWU informer
Veteran
- Nov 4, 2003
- 7,550
- 3,767
Maybe you need to get closer, attend some negotiations, and attend a Convention and then report how the staff is appointed and advanced. Or just stop Dale Lance at work and ask him, he knows.
