AMT morale in the toilet

[High Iron]

Gee, I didn't see anyone being concerned about this when it was the IT industry being decimated... or the steel industry... or the auto industry... or the textile industry......

What sophistry! Throwing out a bogus strawman argument and then backing it up by implying to the audience they must prove a negative ( impossible ) to counter said argument.

Plenty of people did ( as do I ) cared, and still do express outrage at the loss of good employment ( and its overall effect on the social fabric ) and shrinkage of the industrial base. It's been discussed and poo-pooed by enough ivory tower economists as inconsequential.

But, I must say I'm certainly much less outraged at the damge to the IT sector, or other white-collar fields. Let me explain: It was precisely they ( though not limited to just them ) who could not care a whit for the textile mill employee or auto/steel worker's plight; They embraced it by rationalizing it by considering themselves "skilled" and everyone else overpaid knuckle-draggers...and so yes, I do believe it was largely a class predjudice....Well, let's just call it what it was/is: Snobbery. What happened next is what really ties this all together: Even if one wanted to ( in a bit of uber-rational robotic thinking ) see them get their turn in the wringer, the reaction of the so-called "professional" class' reaction when it actually did happen was enough to make the the uber-rational robot rub his hands together in a bit of restrained glee...reverse snobbery. You see, this class ( and the media, largely sympathetic to the white-collar world....birds of a feather you know ) reacted in a most arrogant manner: "It shouldn't happen to "us"...it was OK when it was "them" ( Time/Newsweek/USnews: "OH MY GOD...WHITE COLLAR LAYOFFS...THIS JUST ISN'T HAPPENING! CAN OUR ECONOMY SURVIVE THIS!!??" ) Purely class driven drivel. "Class Warfare" indeed. Do I need to point out the irony here? I followed this issue for 15 years, and this is exactly how it played out.

 

[eolesen]

They embraced it by rationalizing it by considering themselves "skilled" and everyone else overpaid knuckle-draggers...and so yes, I do believe it was largely a class predjudice....Well, let's just call it what it was/is: Snobbery.

How ironic. I've heard for years how unskilled knuckle-dragging bag-smashers were unworthy of even being in the same union as the highly skilled and licensed AMT's.

If that's not class prejudice or snobbery, I don't know what is.

But, I must say I'm certainly much less outraged at the damge to the IT sector

And quite honestly, I don't see a lot of sympathy for how the airlines have been decimated, either. Popular opinion is that the unions did it to themselves (similar to how many reacted to what happened in the other three industries I mentioned). So, Congress can look into safety, as they should, and it might create a few more low paying jobs at MRO's in Scab Bayou, LA or a converted air force base (i.e. Griffis in Rome NY or KI Sawyer in MI), but it won't see well paying jobs restored at the majors.

 

[Ed Norton]

How ironic. I've heard for years how unskilled knuckle-dragging bag-smashers were unworthy of even being in the same union as the highly skilled and licensed AMT's.

I see what you're trying to do but I'll bite. Yes to some it may be snobbery but its about self preservation.
Look at how many AMT jobs have been outsourced internally by AA with the help of the TWU to the rampers. Push backs were given to the ramp over twenty years ago. I haven't done the math but thats quite a large amount of AMTs that could working instead of being on lay off. Deicing was also insourced to the rampers. That adds up to alot of over time taken from AMTS.
Lets not forget the SRP, OSM fiasco.
So you see, bubba, its not about snobbery, its about survival :down:

 

[UAL_TECH]

What sophistry! Throwing out a bogus strawman argument and then backing it up by implying to the audience they must prove a negative ( impossible ) to counter said argument.

Plenty of people did ( as do I ) cared, and still do express outrage at the loss of good employment ( and its overall effect on the social fabric ) and shrinkage of the industrial base. It's been discussed and poo-pooed by enough ivory tower economists as inconsequential.

But, I must say I'm certainly much less outraged at the damge to the IT sector, or other white-collar fields. Let me explain: It was precisely they ( though not limited to just them ) who could not care a whit for the textile mill employee or auto/steel worker's plight; They embraced it by rationalizing it by considering themselves "skilled" and everyone else overpaid knuckle-draggers...and so yes, I do believe it was largely a class predjudice....Well, let's just call it what it was/is: Snobbery. What happened next is what really ties this all together: Even if one wanted to ( in a bit of uber-rational robotic thinking ) see them get their turn in the wringer, the reaction of the so-called "professional" class' reaction when it actually did happen was enough to make the the uber-rational robot rub his hands together in a bit of restrained glee...reverse snobbery. You see, this class ( and the media, largely sympathetic to the white-collar world....birds of a feather you know ) reacted in a most arrogant manner: "It shouldn't happen to "us"...it was OK when it was "them" ( Time/Newsweek/USnews: "OH MY GOD...WHITE COLLAR LAYOFFS...THIS JUST ISN'T HAPPENING! CAN OUR ECONOMY SURVIVE THIS!!??" ) Purely class driven drivel. "Class Warfare" indeed. Do I need to point out the irony here? I followed this issue for 15 years, and this is exactly how it played out.

Good Post!!!
My sentiments exactly!!!
Take Care,
B) UT

 

[Wretched Wrench]

How ironic. I've heard for years how unskilled knuckle-dragging bag-smashers were unworthy of even being in the same union as the highly skilled and licensed AMT's.

If that's not class prejudice or snobbery, I don't know what is.

No, it's not class prejudice or snobbery. So I guess you really don't know "what is".

I don't see it as an "unworthy" issue, but one of horses for courses.

In the construction union it is common for each craft to have its own union. They manage rather well without accusations of class prejudice or snobbery.

A number of other airlines have functioned quite well, with different unions for different crafts.

I don't remember TWU members accusing the stewardesses of class prejudice or snobbery when they left the TWU.

I believe each work group or craft can have issues that are best addressed by those with some knowledge of those issues. If I get in trouble, I would be more comfortable with a steward from my own department than with one from another department, who knows very little about the job, issues or people.

So, to use your own words, you might very well not know what class prejudice or snobbery is. Or at least you might be seeing it where it might not exist.

Red Herring?

Or perhaps your usual straw man. In a shrill exercise in reductio ad absurdum, you constuct the statement "I've heard for years how unskilled knuckle-dragging bag-smashers were unworthy of even being in the same union as the highly skilled and licensed AMT's." and then make your accusations against your own construction.

Or could it be that that was just a gratuitous cheap shot, perhaps motivated by your own class prejudice or snobbery?

In any case, it just doesn't fly.

To paraphrase Samuel Johnson, Egalitarianism is the last refuge of scoundrels.

 

[Bob Owens]

No, it's not class prejudice or snobbery. So I guess you really don't know "what is".

I don't see it as an "unworthy" issue, but one of horses for courses.

In the construction union it is common for each craft to have its own union. They manage rather well without accusations of class prejudice or snobbery.

A number of other airlines have functioned quite well, with different unions for different crafts.

I don't remember TWU members accusing the stewardesses of class prejudice or snobbery when they left the TWU.

I believe each work group or craft can have issues that are best addressed by those with some knowledge of those issues. If I get in trouble, I would be more comfortable with a steward from my own department than with one from another department, who knows very little about the job, issues or people.

So, to use your own words, you might very well not know what class prejudice or snobbery is. Or at least you might be seeing it where it might not exist.

Red Herring?

Or perhaps your usual straw man. In a shrill exercise in reductio ad absurdum, you constuct the statement "I've heard for years how unskilled knuckle-dragging bag-smashers were unworthy of even being in the same union as the highly skilled and licensed AMT's." and then make your accusations against your own construction.

Or could it be that that was just a gratuitous cheap shot, perhaps motivated by your own class prejudice or snobbery?

In any case, it just doesn't fly.

To paraphrase Samuel Johnson, Egalitarianism is the last refuge of scoundrels.

Maybe from now on we should refer to Former Moderator as the Egalitarian Scoundrel!

 

[Bear96]

.
Oh, for the first twenty-some years of my time here.

Please. AMTs have been complaining about "morale" for many years, if not decades.

 

[Wretched Wrench]

Please. AMTs have been complaining about "morale" for many years, if not decades.

Nope. Things were pretty good at AA until the mid-eighties. Ask any of the high time mechs left.

 

[Bear96]

OK. So for 20 years, AMT morale has sucked. (Kinda what I said -- years, if not decades.)

 

[Wretched Wrench]

OK. So for 20 years, AMT morale has sucked. (Kinda what I said -- years, if not decades.)

Yup.

Bob, still got your chart?

 

[Boomer]

This commission could help us or kill us.

Needless to say: AIRCON and the ATA will be in there pitching for FAR66 as a way of boosting the numbers of "skilled" aerospace workers.

 

[Bob Owens]

Yup.

Bob, still got your chart?

I'm sure I have it somewhere, but I dont remember how to post it.

 

[Wretched Wrench]

OK. So for 20 years, AMT morale has sucked. (Kinda what I said -- years, if not decades.)

This chart will illustrate how our pay has declined every year since 1984. With the exception of a year and a half, after which we sunk even lower.

Maslow says pay is a hygiene factor, not a motivator. True, as far as it goes, but the obverse side of that coin is that pay might not be a motivator, pay cuts are most definitely demotivators. Negatives are always stronger than positives. And while we adjust rather well to pay increases, adjusting to pay cuts generates a lasting reservoir of ill will. It's basic human nature. Few will remember what you've done for them, but all will rememeber what you have done to them.

Click on the chart to read the numbers.

 

[eolesen]

Funny that nobody wants to ever post airline pay vs. CPI for years prior to deregulation... It's a fact that airline wages were considerably higher than the national average up until 1979. Show this from 1970 forward, and you'd see that what happened in the 80's and into the 90's was a correction as airline wages fell back into line with national averages.

If you take the same chart and trend it against national averages instead of just CPI, you'd also see that wages fell below the national average somewhere between 1995 and 2000, and continue to stay there.

 

[Wretched Wrench]

Funny that nobody wants to ever post airline pay vs. CPI for years prior to deregulation... It's a fact that airline wages were considerably higher than the national average up until 1979. Show this from 1970 forward, and you'd see that what happened in the 80's and into the 90's was a correction as airline wages fell back into line with national averages.

If you take the same chart and trend it against national averages instead of just CPI, you'd also see that wages fell below the national average somewhere between 1995 and 2000, and continue to stay there.

I don't have those figures, but would like to see them. I just posted the chart to as a visual aid to my statement that "Things were pretty good at AA until the mid-eighties."

I have a neighbor who started as an HVAC tech about when I started at AA. He has two years at a jr college in that field. He has always made more than I. So has a union electrician I have known since the 60s. BTW, he retired some time back with a far better retirement than I will ever see.

These may be dismissed as anecdotal references, but they are real world people in the same community, with about the same training and skill. I could go on and name other skilled techs I know, with more of the same.