Well I certainly have issues with unions but it is really more rooted in the unions that are out there as a choice right now. I was IAM at one time then AMFA. ..But lets call it what it is. There is no doubt that at least on the AMT side that they (DL and FX )enjoy the wage they do thanks to AMFA and the sacrifice those of us made for a better wage for AMT's everywhere. We at NWA paid the ultimate price with our careers while non union AMT's like DL and FX are riding the coattails of the unions mechanics like myself who were willing to fight for what is right..Must be nice to sit back and enjoy the fruits of OUR labor. We took all the risk and raised the industry pay all the while the non-union dudes get their pay matched to keep the union out and never have to pay a dime of union dues or risk a strike but like to condemn those who want a union. The vote happened and the majority spoke thats fine they don't want a union and personally from a selfish point of view I was glad to see the IAM get their clock cleaned ( sorry Kev). But just want you DL people to know that you have never had a union or want one. Just remember you now have former NW management running the show now at DL. You all might find yourself sorry in the future for that vote. This isn't your daddies Delta anymore. Hope I am wrong for your sake.
Are the unions getting the message yet?
- Thread starter SFJoy
- Start date
Well I certainly have issues with unions but it is really more rooted in the unions that are out there as a choice right now. I was IAM at one time then AMFA. ..But lets call it what it is. There is no doubt that at least on the AMT side that they (DL and FX )enjoy the wage they do thanks to AMFA and the sacrifice those of us made for a better wage for AMT's everywhere. We at NWA paid the ultimate price with our careers while non union AMT's like DL and FX are riding the coattails of the unions mechanics like myself who were willing to fight for what is right..Must be nice to sit back and enjoy the fruits of OUR labor. We took all the risk and raised the industry pay all the while the non-union dudes get their pay matched to keep the union out and never have to pay a dime of union dues or risk a strike but like to condemn those who want a union. The vote happened and the majority spoke thats fine they don't want a union and personally from a selfish point of view I was glad to see the IAM get their clock cleaned ( sorry Kev). But just want you DL people to know that you have never had a union or want one. Just remember you now have former NW management running the show now at DL. You all might find yourself sorry in the future for that vote. This isn't your daddies Delta anymore. Hope I am wrong for your sake.
Didnt Delta go BK? So does that mean that you non-union workers ran your company into the ground?
How many of your coworkers lost their jobs after 9-11? You guys are still trying to recall people arent you? Wasnt one of the long standing promises of Delta that they would match whatever the Unions are getting and not lay people off once they were full time? By the way you guys make a lot less than Unionized SWA, you even make less than non-union Jet Blue.
You know three people who got their jobs back, what after admitting guilt regardless of the truth and begging for mercy like the courts in the USSR? How many never got their jobs back and were never given the opportunity to get a fair hearing?
Ellen Simonetti , here's one person who didnt get her job back even though she never said who she worked for nor violated any standing Delta rule.
http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0oG7lVoiANNC18BjfZXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTEzcXNnbmdrBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMgRjb2xvA2FjMgR2dGlkA1FJMDA3Xzcy/SIG=120qp9hoc/EXP=1292163560/**http%3a//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ellen_Simonetti
Although she may be a scab here's another one; Nancy Grozdanich-Lipinski
http://www.businessmanagementdaily.com/articles/24007/1/Fired-after-injury-star-worker-sues-Delta-under-ADA-/Page1.html#
Another, David Hollins
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/582177/Fired-worker-sues-Delta-accuses-airline-of-bias-and-racial-insensitivity.html
And yet another, I'm up to 4 and I dont work for Delta.
Eric Amankwah
http://www.blackstarnews.com/news/122/ARTICLE/6198/2010-01-07.html
There, I've named 4 people who were fired by Delta and didnt get their jobs back. can you name the three that you claim did? No, because then YOU may be fired! Let me guess were the three who got their jobs back White Males? Seems Delta has something against blacks and women.
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
- Dec 5, 2003
- 21,709
- 10,721
Skyguy,
the reason why stock price goes up when layoffs are announced is because they are part of a restructuring... an indication that the business had not adapted and had to take dramatic steps to turn things around.
Rarely are layoffs the ONLY part of a restructuring... Wall Street is voting for well run businesses. If labor is part of the cost problem and there are alternatives to bring down costs, then it is the companies OBLIGATION to the stockholders to explore that option.
Alot of people seem to forget that unions have obligations to work with the company to preserve what is in the best interests of the company. Rarely do companies succeed and yet employees are still laid off. Once again, look at WN.. one of the most unioniozed airlines in the US. But their unions understand very well what it takes for the company to succeed and work hard to do what is their MUTUAL BEST INTEREST.
WN is a well run company to be sure. But it succeeds because its employees understand what is in the best interest of the company (the company does a very good job of communicating it) and the employees (and the unions that serve the employees) deliver win-win solutions over and over again.
As for lambasting management for its role in bringing down the role of the middle class American worker, you might want to consider that American consumer appetites are far more responsible for the decline of the American workforce itself than corporate America could ever do.
Americans demand the newest, cheapest products and save nothing of what they make.
If you are one of the "average" Americans that saves next to nothing, has thousands of dollars of consumer debt (unsecured, we're not talking about your house or car), and a house full of the latest gadgets stamped with "Made in (anyplace where labor rates are a fraction of what they are in the US/Canada", then you bear a significant amount of responsibility for the state of the American worker. Companies are only providing what consumers demand.
I might add that I know people who are pro-union, understand proper labor-mgmt relationships, work hard to make their companies succeed, save at well above average rates, spend their money very carefully, and have next to no debt. Unfortunately, those types of people are the rare minority who need to have far more influence if the average American worker is to regain some of his/her worth and value.
Where did you pull that out of?
That is just so wrong, the unions obligations are to work in the members interests, not the companys. Now if you had said that the members have an interest in seeing the company do well then you may have a point, but company success and employee interest are not always mutual interests. A company would always welcome employees agreeing to work for less, even if the company is making record profits but thats not in the employees best interests. I remember my Grandmother telling about people like you "They would pull the teeth from your mouth and tell you how good you look without them".
Fair enough, and SWA has AMFA, IBT, TWU, the same unions as many other carriers yet they earn a lot more than most others, including Non-union Delta. Do you think the relationship would be the same if the pay and benifits were the same as Delta or AA?
By the way I sent this on a Dell Dimension 4100, I bought back in 2000. Although I tried to maintain a low debt, my cars were all used when I got them, one is a 1993 with 280,000 miles and the other is a 1995 with 150,000 miles on it my debt has skyrocketed since 2003, I've only reversed the trend recently because my wife became an RN and her starting pay was more than mine. Its not the toys that break us, its the fact that our wages lag so the rich can get more while the ordinary things, the things that arent optional keep going up in price such as food, healthcare, education, fuel, utilies, taxes etc. If someone goies out and spends less than one percent of their income on discretionry items like the latest and greatest that doesnt change the fact that wile their real income has gone down by 40% that their real, non-discretionary costs, have been going up. The fact is the people at the top are a bunch of Greedy mother #$%^#$s who will take and take and take. They will never have enough and always demand that we give up more even though they dont need it.
DAL Mech
Advanced
signals
Veteran
I've gotta sit back and laugh at this entire discussion. Having been in both union and non-union jobs in my career, I personally prefer union. Yes unions may be corrupt, but so is management. I'll admit that after seeing the IAM actually sell-out NWA union employess for cheaper Air Wisconsin IAM union employees, I would think twice before having them for a union.
But to knock unions for taking your money, is not looking at the big picture. As a union employee, I make $5+ a similar non-union employee. Plus I have better benefits and a better retirement. So shoot me if there are exceptions to the rules
The reality of life is those who never worked union, don't know or understand unions, just like the union workers don't want a job without one. At Delta, NWA employees were outmatched 2 to 1. I believe fa's were 6000 NWA, and 12000 Delta. Good luck with that!
Still most union bashers don't realize that the main players in the airline industry, the pilots at Delta, are UNION! Why not go and bash them and tell them that their union dues are only making their union representatives rich. Pilots want their union so they can have some control over management. The rest of you are puppets and you just don't see the strings management is pulling.
So congratulations on not wasting your money on union representation, now go talk some sense to the pilots who get theirs and don't bother with the lower totem pole!
But to knock unions for taking your money, is not looking at the big picture. As a union employee, I make $5+ a similar non-union employee. Plus I have better benefits and a better retirement. So shoot me if there are exceptions to the rules
The reality of life is those who never worked union, don't know or understand unions, just like the union workers don't want a job without one. At Delta, NWA employees were outmatched 2 to 1. I believe fa's were 6000 NWA, and 12000 Delta. Good luck with that!
Still most union bashers don't realize that the main players in the airline industry, the pilots at Delta, are UNION! Why not go and bash them and tell them that their union dues are only making their union representatives rich. Pilots want their union so they can have some control over management. The rest of you are puppets and you just don't see the strings management is pulling.
So congratulations on not wasting your money on union representation, now go talk some sense to the pilots who get theirs and don't bother with the lower totem pole!
I've gotta sit back and laugh at this entire discussion. Having been in both union and non-union jobs in my career, I personally prefer union. Yes unions may be corrupt, but so is management. I'll admit that after seeing the IAM actually sell-out NWA union employess for cheaper Air Wisconsin IAM union employees, I would think twice before having them for a union.
But to knock unions for taking your money, is not looking at the big picture. As a union employee, I make $5+ a similar non-union employee. Plus I have better benefits and a better retirement. So shoot me if there are exceptions to the rules
The reality of life is those who never worked union, don't know or understand unions, just like the union workers don't want a job without one. At Delta, NWA employees were outmatched 2 to 1. I believe fa's were 6000 NWA, and 12000 Delta. Good luck with that!
Still most union bashers don't realize that the main players in the airline industry, the pilots at Delta, are UNION! Why not go and bash them and tell them that their union dues are only making their union representatives rich. Pilots want their union so they can have some control over management. The rest of you are puppets and you just don't see the strings management is pulling.
So congratulations on not wasting your money on union representation, now go talk some sense to the pilots who get theirs and don't bother with the lower totem pole!
Great post, For those of you anti-Union people go get department of labor statistics on salaries and you will see Union employees make more. Also, all those favorite actors and actresses of yours.............Union, CEO's have contracts which equals........Union. Think about it!
metopower
Veteran
- Nov 28, 2006
- 932
- 313
Well you you really know little about Delta ALPA. ... 1 there is a movement to de certify ALPA in favor of an inhouse union. 2.. Being the ONLY union on Delta property except for the dispatchers...we are the ONLY employee group that LOST our retirement......YEH ...UNION!!!!!!! Delta ALPA does not work as a UNION .But then again the other employees got to see the Union benefits for them selves before they voted.I've gotta sit back and laugh at this entire discussion. Having been in both union and non-union jobs in my career, I personally prefer union. Yes unions may be corrupt, but so is management. I'll admit that after seeing the IAM actually sell-out NWA union employess for cheaper Air Wisconsin IAM union employees, I would think twice before having them for a union.
But to knock unions for taking your money, is not looking at the big picture. As a union employee, I make $5+ a similar non-union employee. Plus I have better benefits and a better retirement. So shoot me if there are exceptions to the rules
The reality of life is those who never worked union, don't know or understand unions, just like the union workers don't want a job without one. At Delta, NWA employees were outmatched 2 to 1. I believe fa's were 6000 NWA, and 12000 Delta. Good luck with that!
Still most union bashers don't realize that the main players in the airline industry, the pilots at Delta, are UNION! Why not go and bash them and tell them that their union dues are only making their union representatives rich. Pilots want their union so they can have some control over management. The rest of you are puppets and you just don't see the strings management is pulling.
So congratulations on not wasting your money on union representation, now go talk some sense to the pilots who get theirs and don't bother with the lower totem pole!
WorldTraveler,
Your post directed at me was very condescending. I was a business major in college, so you don't need to talk down to me.
Your post directed at me was very condescending. I was a business major in college, so you don't need to talk down to me.
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
- Dec 5, 2003
- 21,709
- 10,721
I am sorry if you felt offended... that was clearly not the intent.
Perhaps you would like to share an example of a company that laid off people without an overall restructuring plan resulting in an increase in stock price.
I didnt see him praising ALPA, just saying that those who have worked Union usually prefer union, your post says that there's a drive to get a new union , not go non-union.
Are you saying that all the ground workers still have a defined benifit pension plan? I thought they froze it.
Kev3188
Veteran
eolesen
Veteran
- Jul 23, 2003
- 15,988
- 9,428
http://www.bizjournals.com/boston/news/2010/12/01/state-street-shares-surge-on-layoff-plan.html
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN1134360820080811
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/02/19/boeing-layoffs-hit-califo_n_469163.html
http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2010-05-11/business/bs-bz-legg-mason-20100511_1_job-cuts-owings-mills-stock
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN2026798320070820
http://www.forbes.com/2008/12/08/obama-automakers-layoffs-markets-cx_cw_1208transvid2.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/22/technology/companies/22chip.html
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
- Dec 5, 2003
- 21,709
- 10,721
I stopped at the first three examples you provide since you made my point. In the first two, there were not simple layoffs but also plant closings and restructuring.
In the third, the article specifically states that Boeing lays off employees throughout the company on a MONTHLY basis.... which would hardly constitute the massive layoffs that Sky... was referring to as part of outsourcing and which I said don't happen without restructuring plans.
I'm not sure Sky or anyone else in the industry is anywhere near ready to see MONTHLY layoffs - since it would appear that Boeing's motivation for MONTHLY layoffs is to remove unwanted employees rather than because the business has changed....
even in the Boeing case, we don't know if the stock appreciation that day was Boeing specific or in line with the market... and since Boeing is a Dow component, it has the ability to move the market.
I am confident that this multi-year plan will transform our operating model and enable State Street to continue its industry leadership in service to clients, innovation and operational excellence,
Read more: State Street shares rise on layoff plan | Boston Business Journal
Aug 11 (Reuters) - Shares of Diebold Inc (DBD.N) rose 2.1 percent to $38.50 before the bell on Monday after the maker of automatic teller machines said it intends to close its manufacturing facility in Newark, Ohio, which employs approximately 100 workers.
And yes, between DL and NW, all pensions were frozen except for the DL pilots pension which was terminated since it contained a cashout provision which could not be removed and which created a deficit which could not be corrected without billions of dollars.
The pilots rec'd significant equity in new DAL stock and most of that was sold within months of issuance. By freezing rather than terminating all other workers' pensions, DL is able to adminster those pensions under the rules of those pension plans; if the plans were terminated, then the PBGC's rules would govern those plans.
All DL and NW employees received some type of replacement pension coverage.
Similar threads
