Delta Air Lines to Build Heavy Maintenance Facility in Queretaro, Mexico

[WorldTraveler]

This thread started out about DL building a JV in Mexico, not how DL treats its employees, how the company manages the ramp, not how NW did things and DL does things, etc..

Not to hard to see it has gone way off topic.

Its not about DL in LGA and leadership 7.5 and every other topic that has been talked about here.

neither is it about ACS staffing yet that is a key part of the conversation that the rest of can see has value to the conversation.

The topic would have ended a long time ago if the simple fact of the Mexico maintenance facility was discussed in isolation.

Unless you personally pay for the bandwidth, let the people participating in the conversation determine where it should go.

 

[737823]

This thread started out about DL building a JV in Mexico, not how DL treats its employees, how the company manages the ramp, not how NW did things and DL does things, etc..

Not to hard to see it has gone way off topic.

Its not about DL in LGA and leadership 7.5 and every other topic that has been talked about here.

"Don't like it don't read it". I've learned from this discussion, Kev and WT have been contributing. If you don't like the topic being discussed, surely you could find something on the USAIR forum to participate in.

Josh

 

[blue collar]

Yeah 700, you're off topic. I like haring how I would be lucky to be employed by delta and their 'superior job experience'. And, luckily, I would only be employed as long as I don't cost my employer too much. The only reason I check back here is for a laugh, kinda like listening to Romney...

 

[WorldTraveler]

I’m not sure where I said any employee should be “lucky they have a job” but, after 9 years on this board and four years since the DL/NW merger, there clearly has come a time to talk about the specific values and goals that DL has which guide its employment and compensation policies.

All companies have compensation and employment policies… the problem is that for much of the US airline industry, there has been little opportunity for adaptation as labor unions have expected that employment and compensation policies should look the same in 2012 as they did in 1947 after the US emerged from WWII as the world’s most powerful and influential country in the history of the earth.
Times have changed but a whole lot of people in the airline industry continue to expect employment and compensation policies and business models to reflect the pre-deregulation days of aviation which was at its height in the post WWII euphoria that vaulted the US to the world’s largest air travel market.

I am satisfied that some people in the past 24 hours are coming to the grips that there are very good companies all around the world that don’t desire to hire employees for a lifetime career and don’t create employment policies that would fuel incorrect assumptions with the employee that they would receive that type of employment.

I am satisfied that some people might be coming to grips with the fact that some airlines succeed because they know what is necessary for them to thrive in their industries and are not going to be dragged into arrangements by any organization that would eliminate their well-developed competitive advantage.

I am satisfied that some people on this board might be coming to the realization that the majority of DL employees do understand the values and objectives that DL has laid out to its employees and that those values and objectives differ considerably from other airlines which have been forced to copy policies from generation to generation, with the result that restructurings at those companies have been far more painful to their employees who have yet to recover anywhere close to what DL employees have recovered post-restructuring (BK or not).

I am satisfied that some people might be coming to grips with the reality that the vast majority of DL employees understand that DL has entered into partnerships with other airlines such as Gol that brings maintenance work to DL while allowing DL to distribute passengers via Gol in Latin America and that passenger transfer accords w/ AS include insourcing of ACS functions in some stations, with both agreements representing the BALANCE of give and take that good companies expect in all of their negotiations, including with their employees and which benefit ALL parties.

I am satisfied that most DL employees understand the tradeoffs that have taken place between AM and DL regarding the swap of airframe and powerplant maintenance and that by actually swapping rather than outsourcing, DL employees are better off that their peers at other airlines whose management teams have simply given away jobs.

My desire is that the discussions on this forum will be far more rooted in an understanding of why DL and perhaps other companies do what they do and why there are some non-negotiable parts of DL’s business model that will not change.

My desire is that Kev and Dawg and others, understanding these key values, objectives, and goals of the company, will succeed beyond their wildest dreams at DL and will become the leaders at DL which I know full well they are capable of being. Truly, one of my greatest joys from these or other participants of this forum would be to receive that kind of good news.

 

[737823]

Kev, in response to your point on partial outsourcing don't other represented carriers do the same at their hubs (and outstations)? I seem to recall UAL does this at ORD and IAD both of which have substantial UAX flying and relatively little domestic UAL flying.

Josh

 

[Glenn Quagmire]

Business needs to be provided an environment where business can grow the economy with American workers w/o creating a financial commitment that spans for decades into the future...

Another priceless quote.

I am sure when an airline finds a way to grow its business without those pesky employees who actually run the operation, then Ma Delta will be at the forefront. Until then they will have to put up with people like Kev and Top Dawg.

 

[Kev3188]

I don't see anyone calling for an ESOP.

I don't see anyone bemoaning DL for paying down it's debt.

There is a sea of difference between an ESOp and employee empowerment, and a further difference between manger-led employment systems, and infantilization & learned helplessness.

That is quite a bold statement. I am guessing that one of your dissertations was on US and Japanese employee motivation trends of the 2000's?

I would think that if a corporation offered a "superior employment experience", they would want that employee to think that they had a shot at a life-long career with that employer.

Maybe it is only me, but I am thinking that a "superior employment experience" would include knowing that I was valued as a long-term employee that was working toward the goals set forth by my employer. If that goal was to make sure that my employment was term limited, my enthusiasm would wane.

THIS.

Yeah 700, you're off topic. I like haring how I would be lucky to be employed by delta and their 'superior job experience'. And, luckily, I would only be employed as long as I don't cost my employer too much. The only reason I check back here is for a laugh, kinda like listening to Romney...

...And this.

I am satisfied

Of course you are. Self satisfaction suits you.

I am "satisfied" that I've yet to see anyone on here agree with the reality you're trying to create.

Kev, in response to your point on partial outsourcing don't other represented carriers do the same at their hubs (and outstations)? I seem to recall UAL does this at ORD and IAD both of which have substantial UAX flying and relatively little domestic UAL flying.

Josh

ZW does the handling for UAX flights at IAD. I may be off, but I believe they no longer do at ORD? The difference, I suppose, is that UA doesn't have it's own wholly owned subsidiary that it uses to whipsaw against it's own employees.

 

[WorldTraveler]

I am sure when an airline finds a way to grow its business without those pesky employees who actually run the operation, then Ma Delta will be at the forefront. Until then they will have to put up with people like Kev and Top Dawg.

except that your characterization of what I said demonstrates the lack of balance that has defined traditional legacy airline labor-mgmt relationships.
That balance actually exists at airlines such as at WN which rewrote the book on labor-mgmt relationships even w/ a highly unionized model and with a deregulation perspective of the industry in mind and they have since been able to succeed as a company and for their employees.

DL has been able to adapt to the changing marketplace better than any other legacy airline, for a greater benefit of the company AND the employees.

As long as you and others refuse to acknowledge that perhaps there is something about the way that DL operates that allows them to be more successful than their peers to the benefit of everyone and which is different from its legacy airline peers, then there will be plenty of opportunity for me to continue to remind you of how well DL and its employees are doing compared to its peers.

 

[WorldTraveler]

Of course you are. Self satisfaction suits you.

I am "satisfied" that I've yet to see anyone on here agree with the reality you're trying to create.

once again you selectively OMIT the fact that I have REPEATEDLY said that I would be most happy to see you succeed, but that would you require that you acknowledge that DL's business model actually works and works for very specific reasons - which I spent an enormous amount of time to list.

Congratulations. You have found a group of a less than a half dozen actual DL non-pilot employees on here who agree with you... but you omit that it was 40,000+ of your peers that voted against representation. Perhaps if you too would be willing to acknowledge that DL does what it does because it works for all involved better than other legacy carrier business models, there would be the basis for understanding why your peers don't feel that other models could deliver better results for them than DL does.

ZW does the handling for UAX flights at IAD. I may be off, but I believe they no longer do at ORD? The difference, I suppose, is that UA doesn't have it's own wholly owned subsidiary that it uses to whipsaw against it's own employees.

We can go thru a million examples of differences between one carrier's operations and another, including DL's.

The real proof is in the bottom line numbers that show how many employees were impacted in BK, how many have been rehired, and how their salary has changed since emerging from BK.
When someone can show me that those bottom line, total numbers, even for a specific workgroup are not supportive of the theories I have developed, then I will be happy to change my mind.

The fact that DL has its own subsidiaries and insources some of the work which others simply give away to other companies thru outsourcing w/o replacement is exactly why DL has been able to adapt and make money better than its peers - and why DL employee compensation and profit sharing continues to grow while other carriers' employees is not.

 

[Kev3188]

Congratulations. You have found a group of a less than a half dozen actual DL non-pilot employees on here who agree with you...

It was based on this:

I am satisfied that some people on this board

but you omit that it was 40,000+ of your peers that voted against representation.

...I don't discount them at all. Rather I continue to point out that tens of 1000's of my peers *did* vote for representation, and 1000's of cards continue to be signed, even as I write this- something that you often omit...

Perhaps if you too would be willing to acknowledge that DL does what it does because it works for all involved better than other legacy carrier business models, there would be the basis for understanding why your peers don't feel that other models could deliver better results for them than DL does.

DL does some things quite well, and I've noted them. How it deals with it's employees is not one of them.

 

[WorldTraveler]

since you didn't finish my quote, I will cite it, noting that there are people on this board (a true statement) who understand why DL does what it does.
My assertion is that DL's actions and policies are the result of a well-defined business plan that has figured out to ensure the company AND its employees win to the greatest degree possible in an industry where failure and employee sacrifice (said w/ sarcasm) are rampant.

I am satisfied that some people on this board might be coming to the realization that the majority of DL employees do understand the values and objectives that DL has laid out to its employees and that those values and objectives differ considerably from other airlines which have been forced to copy policies from generation to generation, with the result that restructurings at those companies have been far more painful to their employees who have yet to recover anywhere close to what DL employees have recovered post-restructuring (BK or not).

Forgive me if I have failed to recognize the positive things you have said DL does.

I also still would like to pursue the autonomy issue which you raised with specific examples.

Four years after the merger, you should be capable of understanding why DL does what it does, acknowledge that they do what they do for very good reasons, and that their actions have resulted in a positive outcome for their employees compared to their peers.

I have acknowledged that NW did a lot of things well and their system worked for themselves; problem is, of course, that NW's mgmt and board didn't believe NW had a viable future on its own and decided to sell out to DL under terms that gave DL pretty broad license to reshape the combined company into DL's image... which is heavily based on DL's traditional values that existed long before the merger - and which are diametrically opposite to NW's values in many respects.

Nonetheless, you are a DL employee now.

You have continued to focus on your subjective belief that DL's treatment of it employees has been lacking, yet fail to acknowledge that your peers - the majority of them - do not believe the legacy airline labor-mgmt model which you have consistently pushed on this board and which you knew at NW - isn't desired by the majority of your DL peers.
I'm fully aware that there are tens of thousands of DL employees who DID vote for a union, but the rules are that the winner's system governs, and thus unionization levels at DL are virtually unchanged since the merger.
The necessary majority of your peers don't agree with you.

So, the question once again, is at what point you will acknowledge that the model you have supported isn't desired by the majority of your peers?
that
I'm all about progress and improvement. But continuing to believe that you can effect change via a system that you can't find enough support for seems to me to be a setup either for years and years of frustration for you, a whole lot of head-butting for us on this forum, or the catalyst to implement changes in your belief structure that will allow you to set goals within an achievable framework.

Four years into the merger, and dozens of years into Dawg's career, I would hope that you two can figure out how to work within the system you are in for your personal benefit but also the benefit of those who you very much could positively impact if you used your considerable talents and abilities in the right framework.

 

[blue collar]

I have yet to hear/read that the DL employees think that the 'labor-mgmt model' has failed. You can say it 1000 times and it still won't make it true.

 

[WorldTraveler]

If they believe that it worked, they would have voted for it. They haven't and there are about 20,000 less union-represented employees than there were before DL and NW merged. And the IAM and AFA failed in their attempts to not only retain those 20K PMNW employees but also recruit the 30K or so PMDL employees who are STILL non-union.

The statistics speak for themselves although some people would like to believe that other perspectives, while valid, override the effects of those voting results.

I've never doubted that Kevin's perspectives are valid. The point remains that there aren't ENOUGH people to choose their perspective or else they don't believe a union system is the right answer.... and thus DL is free to operate the company in the way it chooses - and is fully responsible for the outcome of those decisions. DL's track record of protecting existing jobs and increasing pay is better that its legacy airline peers and thus DL employees have far less incentive to change the model under which they work, as much as Kevin and Dawg would like to try to convince us of the necessity of a change.

 

[Kev3188]

You have continued to focus on your subjective belief that DL's treatment of it employees has been lacking

When it's backed by real world examples conituously happening across the system, it's not subjective.

and thus unionization levels at DL are virtually unchanged since the merger.

This seems to imply that there have been multiple opportunities for elections. That's not the case.

So, the question once again, is at what point you will acknowledge that the model you have supported isn't desired by the majority of your peers?

When their actions indicate just that.

...Or maybe when the calls for cards in ACS & IFS slow from their current torrent. Maybe.

I'm all about progress and improvement. acquiescence

FIFY

But continuing to believe that you can effect change via a system that you can't find enough support for seems to me to be a setup either for years and years of frustration for you...

There is nothing frustrating about working for positive change.

 

[WorldTraveler]

Then if there is such widespread oppression of the people, then far be it from me to stop you from liberating the oppressed masses from their misery. Problem is that a majority don't seem to realize the plight which you say they are in.

Just remember, you need a majority - and so far, no union at DL has been able to round up a majority in ANY of the large workgroups since the pilots unionized long before you descended to terra firma.

If the torrent actually exists and a majority vote for unionization, then you should be in a position to run for president of the lodge in short order.

And you shouldn't be surprised if I continue to ask you on a regular basis for evidence of the success in your campaign.... but be sure and carry on. OK?