Delta Air Lines to Build Heavy Maintenance Facility in Queretaro, Mexico

Discussion in 'Delta Air Lines' started by Glenn Quagmire, Sep 2, 2012.

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  1. Kev3188

    Kev3188 Veteran

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    Unseasonably warm, actually...

    You said they planned to "expand" on the current operating margin. All I did was note that the stated 4Q guidance calls for a lower number.

    "Transitioned," and/or "transitioning," depending on which tense was required...

    Maybe, maybe not.

    There's a little more to it, but you already know that...

    ...And I'm sure the PMDL people loved having their percentage dropped from 6.3% to 4.85 w/no recourse...

    The "number" is whatever the company decides it's going to be...
     
  2. Kev3188

    Kev3188 Veteran

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    Oh, it's fantastic; trust me.

    (sarcasm)
     
  3. WorldTraveler

    WorldTraveler Corn Field

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    based on the quarter financial results that were just released from all carriers, DL outperformed its peers in operational and financial terms and continue to grow the company's financials.
    BTW, Kev, I failed to respond to your comment about the reduced employment numbers ... which are driven largely by the shutdown of Comair. You do remember that OH's union reps said they believed that DL had treated them fairly?

    I'm not sure what any of us really know what type of workforce it takes to run an airline. The assumption that it has to be 100% FT employees is obviously not accurate and will never happen again.
    I think it is also safe to say that even if we restrict the discussion just to ACS, then there will always be a place for FT people including people like Kev who have a wealth of experience working w/ multiple partner airlines and multiple computer systems simultaneously. As noted by the DOT data, DL pays people like him quite well compared to his peers.
    I WANT FT, experienced people like Kev in leadership positions in running the operation. But that is precisely the point. Kev and high salaried people are there because of their experience and the company's need for them to lead those who are less experienced... and yes it will include part-time people... perhaps at times even a team largely made up of part-time people.

    But DL's strategy obviously is working and people like Kev are doing what they have to do to help DL win in the marketplace.

    DL in return is providing above average wages for its people, even if its stated goal is only "average"
    UA's employees would have love to swap profit sharing w/ DL employees.

    Note that much of UA's profits for the quarter were wiped out by a nearly $500M charge for signing bonuses for the pilots which doesn't even include the costs of bringing UA's pilot salaries up to DL pilot levels. UA's finances do not currently support operating a strong company while paying salaries to all employee groups even close to what DL employees make. The gap between what even the DL mechanics make and what UA mechanics make is far smaller than the gap between the majority of UA employee groups and their DL peers.


    Kev,
    Transition - past or present - has not meant layoffs w/o option to transfer since the DL/NW merger. Period.
    The airline industry has long required people to move both involuntarily and voluntarily in order to progress. You have probably done it. I have. It is both the blessing and the curse of working for a company w/ operations spread all over the globe - even if most employees transfer only within their home country's borders.
    I'm not sure it seems so wrong for an employee to be able to transfer to be able to move up or improve their life but it isn't ok for a company to tell an employee they need to relocate in order to keep their job.
    Of course, even if the employee chooses not to stay, they still receive a severance package... and those packages have almost always been quite generous when offered on a voluntary basis when mgmt tends to whisper into people's ears that there might be changes coming that would impact their ability to remain in their present location.


    Didn't you say you wanted to have a reduced profit sharing figure and more in your pocket each pay check? Apparently DL polled its non-union employees and got the same response as the pilots who agreed to the reduction even negotiating thru a union.
     
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  4. Kev3188

    Kev3188 Veteran

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    That is incorrect.

    Who's making the assumption that it *must* be 100% FT? It'd be nice, but I haven't heard a specific call for that-certainly not on here, anyway.

    No one is safe. Period.

    There are hundreds of people who once worked in both legacy GO's that disagree with you.

    That's because you absolutely refuse to acknowledge at a minimum that it's a structural layoff.

    I wasn't asked.

    But, yes, given the fuzzy math used for profit sharing, I'll take my $$ now, thanks.
     
  5. WorldTraveler

    WorldTraveler Corn Field

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    Few notes...

    The shutdown of OH occurred in the 3rd quarter, IIRC. Unless you can tell me where else that reduction came from and that OH didn't have anything to do with it, then it is obvious that the vast majority of the number comes from OH.
    BTW, these are full-time equivalents... even if you know of a FT employee who left DL in the 3rd quarter who knew someone who left and you add all those "departed employees" up, it still doesn't mean DL couldn't have replaced the same jobs with an equivalent number of PT/RR employees and had the same total. That's the way the math works... for ALL companies that report employment using a standard metric such as FTEs.

    I didn't say 100% is a goal... but you apparently don't want to accept that DL has found a balance that works for the company, that other companies w/ their unions have not reached stability WRT earnings and employment which means they will move as well, or that DL employees can't tell the difference - and choose the option which best suits their needs.

    Merit employees have always been required to assume more job risks but also gained certain benefits that other employees did not. You'll recall that NW mgmt employees had boarding priority over non-mgmt employees, a policy which DL said didn't fit DL's ethos.
    I don't think DL ever said they would protect all merit jobs.. at DL or in the DL/NW merger. And there were PMNW people who pushed out DL people which is exactly how a policy of the "the most capable person wins" works.... a strategy that is not used w/ non-merit personnel.

    No, I get the concept of a reduction in force.. but being asked to relocate is not a layoff. If your job is terminated w/o recourse, then it is a layoff. The stores and maintenance people in MSP were not laid off, as much as you would like to try to paint them as victims. notably, other airlines have faced consolidation issues during other mergers. The issue is that NW didn't retain its independence, not that DL did something that isn't part and parcel of the integration process for mergers.

    You'll get your profit sharing for this year... but you will also get your pay raise on Jan 1. You CAN have your cake and eat it too. Seems you want cake, ice cream, and a trip to the candy store too and that might not all be possible - at least on the same day. :)

    but you can pool your goodies w/ those from the rest of the family and together everyone might get a little and then it might be possible to have cake, ice cream, and candy.
     
  6. Kev3188

    Kev3188 Veteran

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    Obvious to who?

    The number I cited is from the most recent 4k; the same one that explicitly notes that FTE's and fleet count do not factor in DCI carriers (the rest of the consolidated data does, of course).

    I know how the math works. Maybe you should remember that you're on a site where it isn't everyone's first day.

    No matter how you slice it, FTE's are down 4% YoY.

    BTW: For those that may not know, DL counts a regular FT employee as 1, a PT employee as .75, and a Ready Reserve as 1/2.

    They do not publicly break out each group, so when WT notes that they are retaining jobs as part of the "superior employment experience," he has no way to know how many of those are RFT, vs. RR.

    Can't tell the difference between what?

    ...Also not nearly as "evil" as the ministry of propaganda has made it out to be. MGMT traveled on "3's," but the masses had an allotment of those that they could use as well annually- to say nothing of the previously mentioned 3A's that DL was so quick to get rid of.

    Nope, they said "no frontline jobs lost."



    YOU said:



    I merely point out that several hundred people found themselves in the exact opposite situation you describe.

    MSP stock clerks could:

    A. Move to ATL
    B. Put in for a job on eBid
    C. Retire

    They aren't victims; they're living examples of how DL's reduction in force policy is anything but "superior" to what they had under a CBA.


    I understand redundancy.

    The issue is the anodyne (and often revisionist) version of reality the company and it's acolytes like to peddle.
     
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  7. 737823

    737823 Veteran

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    Is this how you feel about pensions as well? You've posted in the past that at represented carriers there seems to be a push to give up wages, other benefits, and even scope to protect the promise of future benefits which you seem opposed to.

    Josh
     
  8. Kev3188

    Kev3188 Veteran

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    Yes.

    For far too long, labor has been cowed into giving away the store to "save the pension." I would prefer the fight shift to both improving 401k plans (matches, allocation options, etc.), and using the savings to improve other "asks" (scope, medical, pay, what have you).

    I also recognize that traditionally I've been very much in the minority in that regard. I do think the tide is shifting at least a little though...
     
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  9. 737823

    737823 Veteran

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    Kev, you really should get involved with negotiations or union leadership at some capacity. If that's how you feel and you seem to be culturally attached to the union why don't you take a position in Upper Marlboro or with another union? I'm in no way saying there is no place for you at DL but it just seems that is where your passion is. You've acknowledged that organized labor is "under attack" and has been "vilified" so maybe through new leadership like yourself you could turn things around. Judging by your posts here you have a lot to contribute, you seem to be smart, dedicated, and able to tolerate opposing view points. Just my two cents.

    Josh
     
  10. Kev3188

    Kev3188 Veteran

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    Thank you for the kind words!

    That might be appealing, but right now I think the focus needs to be (re)building labor from the ground up, as opposed to from the top down. It's the more difficult way, but the potential ROI is much greater, as it seems to resonate more with everyone, and fosters a much greater feeling of engagement.
     
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  11. WorldTraveler

    WorldTraveler Corn Field

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    First, I am VERY happy to see you using some of the data available to debate your points…. I KNEW all along that you were capable of looking at the data and having a good debate….
    I’m not sure what the 4K is you reference but DL filed an 8K at the same time they released earnings and, while I cannot get the 8K to download today, I am almost certain it is the same earnings press release which includes employment numbers and the percentage change you reference.
    It also includes this statement which I think you also reference.
    Note: except for full-time equivalent employees and number of aircraft in fleet, consolidated data presented includes operations under Delta's contract carrier arrangements.​


    I can tell you that how DL counts employees has ALWAYS been confusing but I am quite certain that Comair’s employees are included in that count, along w/ all other wholly owned subsidiaries. OH was not a contract carrier since it was a wholly owned subsidiary. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought MLT vacations was a wholly owned subsidiary and DL also is in the process of moving operations out of MSP which would also affect those numbers. Trainer is also wholly owned and those employees will count in that number.
    But even if I am wrong and you are right, I’m not sure it changes the argument too much. DL has offered early out programs this year and said most of the exit dates would be after summer… which was before the end of the 3[sup]rd[/sup] quarter. Including pilots there might have been 2200-2500 employees… plus normal attrition.
    I think the key point is that you say that DL is eliminating full-time positions and not replacing them. If they are replaced at all it is with PT/RR people. You are correct that I do not know the composition of the workforce – PT/FT – and you are right.
    But I have never argued that DL is retaining future FT positions or denied that DL is converting FT positions to PT/RR. I have said- repeatedly – that DL is committed to protecting the jobs of EXISTING full-time employees and offering incentives for EXISTING employees to leave.
    I continue to believe DL’s strategy of reducing costs – esp. benefits costs which vary widely between FT and PT/RR employees as well as younger (college RRs etc) and senior employees (families or middle age when health issues start to become more pronounced).
    You seem to be more focused on the fact that FT jobs are diminishing regardless of how they are eliminated.
    DL said earlier this year that it would reduce headcount via the voluntary packages for non-pilot and pilot personnel and would not replace those people this year… I think you are seeing that right now. Perhaps next summer if the airline grows, DL will hire more PT/RR people but I suspect you are seeing at least at least a 9 month long reduction in the total number of people on DL’s payroll. Pilots are waiting for the fleet plan for 2013 but there are indications that DL will be retaining some planes, including the DC9s for at least another summer to support domestic expansion which almost has to be started in the summer. The NYC expansion has been very successful and some pilots are saying that DL will start shifting domestic – not just int’l growth – to the west coast including LAX and SEA. On the earnings call, DL noted that the JFK transcons are doing particularly well in part due to the expanded service and amenities DL is offering. This winter DL will offer more flights JFK-SFO than AA and DL’s transcon BE is an int’l quality product compared to what is used on other domestic markets and DL is apparently looking at upgrading the transcon 757 fleet to lie flat business class. DL already is already almost on par with AA and UA onboard revenue for the transcons due to DL’s greater number of seats on the aircraft. The significance is that the JFK transcons have long been a market where DL has not been able to generate industry standard revenues. With evidence that Virgin America’s plan is not working and they may be forced to pull back, and with DL’s buildup in other NYC markets where DL is getting industry average or better revenue, DL is much better positioned than ever to be seen as a one-stop player in the NYC market – which right now is heavily divided between AA, DL, and UA as well as B6 as the largest players.
    As much as some people focus heavily on labor issues to the exclusion of revenue and marketing, any company’s ability to pay its people well is directly tied to how well they do in the marketplace.
    One more note about staffing… DL is cutting staff for the winter based on the early outs. Remember that DL is passing out pay raises – did so in July and will do it again in Jan. DL’s non-fuel costs were up and a lot of analysts noted that DL seemed to have committed to pay raises before it began to see the benefits of increased productivity and efficiency that will come esp. from the new pilot agreement. Probably a correct assessment.
    Some people might not want to hear it but I also believe there is a competitive component to DL’s compensation policies. DL knew full well that UA pilots were getting close to a contract and that by raising DL pilot pay, it put even more pressure on UA to agree to DL pilot levels since it is really hard for UA to come up w/ a reason why it cannot match DL pilot levels. AA is in a somewhat different position but its pilots still continue to argue that they should be paid DL pay levels. Note that even w/ the July pay increases, DL still managed to have a ~ $1B profit and DL has the lowest CASM among legacy carriers. UA’s profit was all but wiped out by the ~$500M lump sum payment it must make to its pilots because the company has dragged its feet for so long in signing a new contract (which is still not signed due to intra-ALPA struggles about how to distribute that money.) UA ALPA previously said that DL level pay would cost UA $750M per year, meaning that the $500M in one quarter in the best quarter is not terribly indicative of the pressure that will be on UA to deliver revenues to support the pay raises necessary to merge the UA/CO workforces AND move past the BK contracts which many UA employees still work under.
    For years, the network airlines could argue that it was ok to ignore WN pay because they were “different” but AA and UA labor won’t allow their employees to ignore DL pay levels.
    DL has the benefit of 2 extra years in integrating NW into DL and to moving to new initiatives like NYC and now SEA-Asia and the refleeting initiative that will help improve DL’s efficiencies while AA and UA are still working thru other strategic issues. Wall Street and customers are noticing what DL is doing and that only helps DL employees….
    Good perspective… but there is a difference since DL offered no boarding “bumps” to any workgroup.

    Ok… so help me understand how a union could have offered other alternatives. If the only place where DL kept stores was in ATL, what could a union have done that DL didn’t offer… and DL’s policy allows employees to move between workgroups, something unions do not necessarily allow, esp. in downsizing situations.

    It appears that your concern continues to be focused on a potential station closure scenario where your station would be closed and you might be forced to move to a station you don’t want to go to… instead of being able to bump into a station of your choosing.

    Valid concern but I still do not see why DL has any incentive to pull DL staffing from any existing station as long as they can use PT/RR people who cost as little per hour as contract people including the profit margin for that company (if not DL – which answers your concern as to why DL has wholly owned ground handling subsidiaries – also doesn’t provide a true picture of “true” DL employees).

    Just a reminder that DL DID save the pensions and has been spending $500-700M on funding frozen pensions that UA and US do not spend.

    I’m sure that if a wide enough lead opens up between DL and other network carriers regarding pay, I have a feeling many DL employees would agree w/ you regarding increasing benefits, esp. retirement funding. Be active on this and let your voice be known. There is obviously room for improvement with medical as well as the potential to buy an extra week of vacation or bank more unused sick time.

    I have encouraged Kev for years to consider using his very obvious talents and abilities to advance labor’s cause if that is what matters to him.

    I would selfishly prefer he figure out how to work w/in DL’s structure, even though it is based on very different values because he could make a lot of contributions to DL… but I understand that might not be his choice.

    One final word for you, Kev.

    I have THOROUGHLY enjoyed our discussion today… less heat, facts, perhaps more understanding of each other’s position than on other days.

    I heard Condoleezza Rice speak last night. She said a couple interesting points… one she said she really likes to engage in debate and that is part of what got her through the difficult times in the WH when she had to handle very divergent opinions. I think I know two people who fit her shoes in that regard…. J
    Second, she talked about leadership and noted that leaders are people who are never content to believe in today at the expense of the world they believe can exist. I COULD NOT HELP but think of you and your passion for constantly pushing to the next level – and that is commendable. But she also said that leaders have to be optimistic – able to convince others of what the world they want to build CAN look at – and able to win over people – the art of influence.

    Interesting perspective from someone who left an impact on the world – and still is.
     
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  12. Kev3188

    Kev3188 Veteran

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    How'd I know you'd kick things off by being condescending? What a sh*tty tone you set for this board. Knock it off already.

    8k. Typo. Same data as all the press releases. In the annual report, the note OH employees that are (were) unionized along w/DL employees as part of the caveat that strikes may occur, etc. That's separate from the M/L count.

    Trainer will not be DL employees, nor will they be counted.

    A much more accurate guess on your part...

    No. They are not replacing *benefitted* employees. Remember, according to DL, there's no such thing as full or part time employees; the only separation is between benefitted & ready reserve.


    No matter which way you choose to interpret "existing," this company does neither. Maybe you should go up & ask the EXISTING employees in ANC cargo how they feel about your oft repeated mantra.


    They're not "raises," and they're not passing them out like candy. But, hey; why don't you let everyone know how large the pilots negotiated increase is right off the bat. Feel free to include the subsequent bumps, and the 401k percentage boost as well.

    Then you can post what the other groups are getting- make sure to differentiate between TOS employees, and those on the lower rungs of the scale.

    Perhaps you can also note what TOS pay was for (PMNW) F/A's in '05 compared to now.
    First ATL is not the only place stores still exists. It's the only place w/ a large warehouse. Second, the affected MSP employees would've never even had to consider leaving MSP- there was a correlation between their seniority and ramp seniority (and many of them had ramp time anyway, but I digress). Further, they would've been able to exercise their seniority on the system. DL non-represented employees do not own their own seniority like at other carriers. If DL's policy allows people to "move between groups," they why were they NOT allowed to (except for putting in for something on eBid)? There were open spots in MSP at the time.

    On a larger scale, during the last election, DL made a lot of hay out of the idea that people could freely move back and forth between 120 & 125. That doesn't happen on any sort of meaningful level.

    My concern is for everyone, not just myself. As for being able to bump where my seniority could hold? That's absolutely preferable. A organized, consistent policy for handling a reduction in force? That's be great too.


    Ya don't say! :rolleyes:

    Okay, try this: Instead of "save the pension," how 'bout: "we have to avoid having the pension either frozen or terminated." Better?

    You just don't get it. "making my voice known" has already happened. Wanna know how that worked out? It didn't. NOTHING happened to improve my station's medical options until the AFA/IAM/ALPA got involved.

    Buy an extra week of vacation? Are you f**king kidding me?

    Bank more sick time? All they have to do is raise the cap. They could do that tomorrow. How 'bout actually letting people use the time that they already earned? Why should I have to wait until day 8?
     
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  13. WorldTraveler

    WorldTraveler Corn Field

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    no, Kevin, it was a genuine expression of good will... but, not surprisingly, you can't tell the difference which perfectly explains why you have made a four year internet career whining about what is wrong with Delta instead of actually figuring out how to survive and thrive at DL.



    Grow a set and actually change the world if you think it is so bad. Josh is saying the same thing I've said to you for years.

    You might start by learning to not bite the hand that feeds you.

    Delta has consistent policies... you just don't happen to like them and stubbornly hold onto the belief that some outdated system that no one else wants will rescue the world from oppression that most of them don't see.
     
  14. Kev3188

    Kev3188 Veteran

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    For someone who repeatedly says that nothing on here is ever personal, you seem a bit upset. Nice to see you finally being intellectually honest, though...

    An internet career? Okay then...



    ...Says the man who has for years advocated not rocking the boat. You apparently are okay with living a life of quiet acquiescence. I am not. It takes NO courage to align yourself with a company and their agenda. None.


    BTW, were you going to answer the questions I asked? I understand how in your quest to make this about me you may have forgotten.

    There is nothing hard and fast about a policy that starts with "may be changed at any time." Even taking that out of the equation, the policies are NOT being applied consistently.

    P.S. Looks like you were editing while I was reading. What happened to the comments about it "being all about you," and DL "not doing enough to get the red out?" You should put the latter back; it would've been a new fave of mine...
     
  15. WorldTraveler

    WorldTraveler Corn Field

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    upset. Hardly.
    Tired of you being unable to engage in a conversation without calling me an F** idiot? You bet.

    Maybe it's no surprise that doors that could have allowed you to be an agent of change have been shut in your face.


    Because I managed to understand the environment in which I live and work w/in those boundaries and CONSTRUCTIVELY implement change HARDLY means I acquiesce to the status quo.


    Yes, I know where the union counts are in the annual report. It’s the same statement that has been there since 1975.



    … maybe you should ask Anderson why NW did not choose to close the freighter operation and left the dirty work to DL?

    Delta pilot pay rates and details on their compensation can be found here. Any DL employee can look at their salaries relative to the pilots if they wish.
    http://www.airlinepi...gacy/delta.html

    Pilots got raises because they control scope and not any other group. DL needed more large RJs and the pilots agreed to give it to DL.

    You said you didn’t want to be a pilot. Don’t expect pilot pay or pay raises if you don’t want to do the job.


    I’ve posted the average compensation data from the MIT airline data project.
    Whatever TOS was, DL FAs managed to bring home better compensation at the end of the day.

    Yes, DL did accommodate PMNW stores people elsewhere at the MSP airport. You didn’t like the process but they did.
     
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