District 141 Meets with United, Secures Wage Increases for Members Working Under Modified Contracts

[WeAAsles]

To answer the first question:
At present (not including the stations that took the cuts), they are 22 (we lost JFK) plus the 7 hubs. Those are presently under scope. Plus the Express Ops in IAH; ORD; and EWR.  They are trying to negotiate more stations to put under scope like IND; SAT; the Hawaiian stations; etc. But some rumors I heard they may want some with Customer Service only and not ramp. I hope that is both and not one over the other. IND and SAT and the Hawaiian stations get a lot of mainline, and we should be handling both. They are having a problem ramping up UGS because of the low pay, I guess, and other factors. But due to the fact of the low performance of the vendors, they are reevaluating and hopefully we can get those stations under permanent scope. I don't know how many after all is said and done. But the bottom line is that UGS will happen (to keep the product in line and not to be giving money to the competitors like Envoy and DGS). They want UGS to be the preferred handler in the Tier 3 and smaller UAX stations instead of a hodge podge of ground handling outfits.  One thing I myself would like to see is to get the Express operation into our hands from DEN and IAD. The disastrous experiment with the Simpletons in DEN and Swissport in IAD speaks volumes. We should get that work as well. But it was traditionally handled by SkyWest and Air Wisconsin, but Jeff wanted a lower cost operation and it showed. More rumors also floated that Cargo was in play as well. I doubt that will happen since they are saying that Cargo is making money now. But to answer another of your questions, we already tried that experiment where people went on a "B" scale to save their station. No more! This isn't Unionism. That one failed because the whole operation went to hell in the first place with all of the cutting.  But I would prefer UGS instead of Envoy; GAT; Worldwide; DGS; etc. if it will not infringe and encroach on our scope.  Trouble is, where are they gonna get the people to round out the new operation? The wages aren't attractive, and the flying is iffy to say the least with lower priority.  So more money will be spent on this to save money (not giving it away to DL and AA) in the longer run.  Hell, I don't even know how many stations they got yet.  Looks like we will have to wait till '17 to see how far UGS grows and our commitment of no outsourcing ends. Hopefully a contract will be in place before then, and we will see the real effect.
 
The reason why many of us are concerned about UGS is because of what the District will give up in order to get these potential members. Klemm and the company may try to short us and sell us out on scope to get these members. I for one believe that there should be no split operations in any hub. We should be doing all that work. Let UGS handle Tier 3 and the stations with no or very limited mainline (also Tier 3). There should be some sort of flight thresholds as well to limit the growth and spread of UGS into Tier 2.
 
As far as medical, we hope it doesn't creep into any raise. The dollar amounts are floating all over the place. 30.00; 31.00; 32.00. Who knows the final amount. But as recent history shows, medical will increases will come one way or the other. That is one of the sticking points with the IBT (and NJ Transit - which thank goodness it settled, hopefully). So far this year, the prescription drug plan is better, along with Dental. I went into a higher cost plan for myself this year. I can live with a bit of an increase (my plan at present is much more comprehensive with lower deductibles).  
 
My main concern is the scope. how much of it we will maintain and expand. No more station cutting. No more involuntary PT. We suffered too much since this all went down. This District has to do right by us. At least Oscar is listening and some efforts are in place to improve things. But we can't give up anything now. We are in a much better position now to negotiate. No retro battles (ie: the Retro Hotline).  No sCO vs sUA. The operation went to hell with all of the cuts so Wall Street can be pleased. The District should be able to use the leverage and the conditions of the airline to negotiate a much better deal for our side. IMHO, members who survived all of this should be better educated on scope more than ever now. The dollar signs are important, but that should not be the number one issue.
 
NO MORE........ 
 
Again, my issue is that why the investors want to have a proxy battle now? The company unperformed for years now. But somehow they made money with the stock buybacks and the cuts. IMHO, that is why they were silent all of these years. Now that Jeff is gone and Oscar is trying to make moves to restore some semblance and restore the employees trust, now these people want to step in. And to throw Gordon out as the front man (who is a revered figure to many of us on the sCO side), it is kind of suspect to say the least.
 
Something is fishy here............

Thank you T5. You put a lot of meat on the bone of your response. A lot to digest.

I hope it works out for all of you because obviously what happens to you I believe affects us as well.

 

[WeAAsles]

Hey T5. Let's hope this is a good sign?

http://www.bizjournals.com/chicago/news/2016/03/15/united-airlines-ceo-oscar-munoz-makes-telling.html?ana=yahoo

 

[700UW]

And here are the highlights for Ramp:
 
http://www.iam141.org/united/docs/040416IAM-UA%20Limited%20Issue%20TA%20Info%20Guide%20FSE.pdf

 

[D7571987]

I am interested to hear from some of the people covered under this TA,  what they think about it. 

 

[Kev3188]

I am too.

Meanwhile, why is JFK- a station UAL doesn't even fly to anymore- covered under scope? Why not either cover an existing one, or if they're all covered, add one of the recently closed ones back in?

 

[WeAAsles]

I am too.
Meanwhile, why is JFK- a station UAL doesn't even fly to anymore- covered under scope? Why not either cover an existing one, or if they're all covered, add one of the recently closed ones back in?

Kev you know better than anyone that in negotiations there are two sides looking to make a deal. And nothing ever comes out 100% perfect.

JMO of course but reading the deal from where they're currently at its a dramatic improvement. You may not be a fan of the architect of that agreement but if I were in their shoes currently I'd have to give the man props.

T5 you've had more time to dissect it now?

 

[Worldport]

Kev you know better than anyone that in negotiations there are two sides looking to make a deal. And nothing ever comes out 100% perfect.

JMO of course but reading the deal from where they're currently at its a dramatic improvement. You may not be a fan of the architect of that agreement but if I were in their shoes currently I'd have to give the man props.

T5 you've had more time to dissect it now?

Im on the outside looking in but the man is making positive changes in a short time  a dramatic improvement from the team before him. I know I'd want to work for this guy

 

[WeAAsles]

Im on the outside looking in but the man is making positive changes in a short time  a dramatic improvement from the team before him. I know I'd want to work for this guy

I was talking about the IAM District President Mike Klemm. Kev doesn't seem to be much of a fan of the man.

 

[T5towbar]

Kev you know better than anyone that in negotiations there are two sides looking to make a deal. And nothing ever comes out 100% perfect.

JMO of course but reading the deal from where they're currently at its a dramatic improvement. You may not be a fan of the architect of that agreement but if I were in their shoes currently I'd have to give the man props.

T5 you've had more time to dissect it now?

Yes I did.
Some very interesting stuff. Hard to find a whole lot of negatives.
Many are so skeptical and jaded because they are thinking what shoe is about to drop. Being beat down for so long and when something seems good or too good, many have questions.
 
I got to talk to some union officials during their visit to my hub.  One of the concerns is that there should have been some FT/PT caps like they had at old United.  In my hub, we had a lot of people reduced to PT from FT, and the results was disastrous. Many shifts weren't covered. Planes holding short for long periods; rampant mandatory (hence the new Task Completion instead of Shift Con.)  The hub was cut so deep, it was a mess. We had to recall furloughees (those who wanted to come back); restore people back to FT status; and hire off the street.  They said that the caps weren't needed now, because the expansion of more mainline work.  I don't know how it is in the rest of the system, but IMHO, there should have been some hard caps so people won't be involuntarily downgraded.  I am still trying to get a definitive answer and would like more clarification on that important issue.
 
The other issue is the role that UGS will play in all of this. The company and the District agree that UGS is considered an "Outside Vendor", and will not infringe on our scope.  The District tried to get the UAX work in IAD and DEN, but the company would not budge on those. They said the costs would be cheaper doing the "status quo" of vendors.  I think that Simplicity and Swissport have three year contracts which they did not want to break. And I think that since LAX and SFO was handled by SkyWest, it was easier transitioning it back to us.
 
The scope of the this seems good. There is no drop dead dates on the stations, and put under scope like all else. There is a chance that we can gain some stations back, depending on when the new planes start arriving. Places like DTW will be receiving more mainline flights. So should ATL (BTW). We should be in position to get that work. A lot of the 50 seaters will be gone. I don't know the situation about the Republic BK, which they fly the 170's (S5). And the regional pilot situations are in flux. So airlines are bringing back a lot of mainline to solve some reliability issues. Bottom line is that those over 100 aircraft (the 737-700 & A319;s) entering the fleet over the next year or so should be handled by mainline. More opportunities for us.
 
I've no issues with the pension, since I am in CARP instead of the IAMNPP. 
 
Medical was not discussed.  It could have been cheaper, but I myself purchased a higher cost plan, being that I'm older. The prescription drug plan is fair, along with the reduced dental. Some have a problem with it, but I don't know what role in the future that the ACA will play in all of this.
 
Grievances should and will no be handled in an expedited matter. People waiting to be heard are in limbo, and some are out weeks at a time. (without pay, of course).
 
The meal period and OT changes (double time for the 2nd consecutive mando) was because of the above 2nd paragraph of my commentary:  LACK OF MANPOWER!!!!  In the hubs where UROC controllers move around the manpower, flights weren't covered, and some people weren't getting their lunches in a manner throughout the day. And Hub Managers constantly calling mandatory every day, due to "operational slide".  At least there will be con consistency throughout this process. Same as Shift Con. Which was a gray area that supervisors tried to skirt around by putting someone on a heavy flight close to their out time. And try to make them do the RON right after the push out. (This is a PM issue during close out). Now the "ROC" and the local supervisor will have to do some actual work by using the seniority list correctly as well as soliciting volunteers earlier.
 
Otherwise, there are some smaller issues, like the OT equalization and attendance issues. (the company have been going around explaining this matter and will work with the union to clarify. But you are your own owner of attendance, and I have see many who lost their jobs due to attendance. The hardest part of this job is showing up for work on time.
 
Bottom line is I can't find too many faults. Some senior people seem to lose money with their longevity pay abolished, but the District says that the new wages should make up for the loss. (personally, that didn't phase me - but the loss our Geo Pay hurt more. But that is water under the bridge.)
 
I think this one will pass, with skepticism. 
 
That's my take on all of this.

 

[Kev3188]

I was talking about the IAM District President Mike Klemm. Kev doesn't seem to be much of a fan of the man.

I'm not.

From where I sit, he's done more harm to our craft than most people in the C-Suite.

Let's also be real here; this T/A may be a massive improvement over he current one, but that's more an indictment of just how terrible that one was... A deal several DL141 officers came on this very site to endorse...

 

[Worldport]

Yes I did.
Some very interesting stuff. Hard to find a whole lot of negatives.
Many are so skeptical and jaded because they are thinking what shoe is about to drop. Being beat down for so long and when something seems good or too good, many have questions.
 
I got to talk to some union officials during their visit to my hub.  One of the concerns is that there should have been some FT/PT caps like they had at old United.  In my hub, we had a lot of people reduced to PT from FT, and the results was disastrous. Many shifts weren't covered. Planes holding short for long periods; rampant mandatory (hence the new Task Completion instead of Shift Con.)  The hub was cut so deep, it was a mess. We had to recall furloughees (those who wanted to come back); restore people back to FT status; and hire off the street.  They said that the caps weren't needed now, because the expansion of more mainline work.  I don't know how it is in the rest of the system, but IMHO, there should have been some hard caps so people won't be involuntarily downgraded.  I am still trying to get a definitive answer and would like more clarification on that important issue.
 
The other issue is the role that UGS will play in all of this. The company and the District agree that UGS is considered an "Outside Vendor", and will not infringe on our scope.  The District tried to get the UAX work in IAD and DEN, but the company would not budge on those. They said the costs would be cheaper doing the "status quo" of vendors.  I think that Simplicity and Swissport have three year contracts which they did not want to break. And I think that since LAX and SFO was handled by SkyWest, it was easier transitioning it back to us.
 
The scope of the this seems good. There is no drop dead dates on the stations, and put under scope like all else. There is a chance that we can gain some stations back, depending on when the new planes start arriving. Places like DTW will be receiving more mainline flights. So should ATL (BTW). We should be in position to get that work. A lot of the 50 seaters will be gone. I don't know the situation about the Republic BK, which they fly the 170's (S5). And the regional pilot situations are in flux. So airlines are bringing back a lot of mainline to solve some reliability issues. Bottom line is that those over 100 aircraft (the 737-700 & A319;s) entering the fleet over the next year or so should be handled by mainline. More opportunities for us.
 
I've no issues with the pension, since I am in CARP instead of the IAMNPP. 
 
Medical was not discussed.  It could have been cheaper, but I myself purchased a higher cost plan, being that I'm older. The prescription drug plan is fair, along with the reduced dental. Some have a problem with it, but I don't know what role in the future that the ACA will play in all of this.
 
Grievances should and will no be handled in an expedited matter. People waiting to be heard are in limbo, and some are out weeks at a time. (without pay, of course).
 
The meal period and OT changes (double time for the 2nd consecutive mando) was because of the above 2nd paragraph of my commentary:  LACK OF MANPOWER!!!!  In the hubs where UROC controllers move around the manpower, flights weren't covered, and some people weren't getting their lunches in a manner throughout the day. And Hub Managers constantly calling mandatory every day, due to "operational slide".  At least there will be con consistency throughout this process. Same as Shift Con. Which was a gray area that supervisors tried to skirt around by putting someone on a heavy flight close to their out time. And try to make them do the RON right after the push out. (This is a PM issue during close out). Now the "ROC" and the local supervisor will have to do some actual work by using the seniority list correctly as well as soliciting volunteers earlier.
 
Otherwise, there are some smaller issues, like the OT equalization and attendance issues. (the company have been going around explaining this matter and will work with the union to clarify. But you are your own owner of attendance, and I have see many who lost their jobs due to attendance. The hardest part of this job is showing up for work on time.
 
Bottom line is I can't find too many faults. Some senior people seem to lose money with their longevity pay abolished, but the District says that the new wages should make up for the loss. (personally, that didn't phase me - but the loss our Geo Pay hurt more. But that is water under the bridge.)
 
I think this one will pass, with skepticism. 
 
That's my take on all of this.

Whats the alternative  do you go back to the table or wait until your contract is up? To me its a win win or am I missing something?

 

[T5towbar]

Whats the alternative  do you go back to the table or wait until your contract is up? To me its a win win or am I missing something?

Looking at all of this, what is the better option to hold out for?
The FT/PT ratios are the only thing that I can think of. There has to be clarity on that before I make my vote next Friday.
The company assured the District that UGS is an outside vendor and will NOT infringe in our scope in any way. That just needs to be put into writing as well.
Everything else is pretty much cleaned up from the mess we got.
 
No one mentioned any out packages though. But there are some rumors (maybe wild ones) that they would offer 5000.00 for every year of service with no bridge medical. I'd like to believe this one since lot of people would bite on this. The last ones were kind of crappy, IMHO. In a way, I'm glad that this is outside the scope of this agreement, (that could lead to people signing a worse agreement)  but if the company offers this, all the merrier......

 

[WeAAsles]

I'm not.

From where I sit, he's done more harm to our craft than most people in the C-Suite.

Let's also be real here; this T/A may be a massive improvement over he current one, but that's more an indictment of just how terrible that one was... A deal several DL141 officers came on this very site to endorse...

Kev I'm not trying to defend the guy cause I don't know him at all. But I've talked enough about the situation of one group coming in with a contract and one coming in pretty much without one.

This guy Klemm was dealing with Smisek and his team which we've seen were nothing but pure skel scuzz. How do any of us know what was said by the company to the IAM negotiators in that room at the time? How do we know that they didn't give them some type of doomsday threat that may have been far worse than what they finally passed? They also turned down TA 1 which from what I understand secured more jobs than crapola option # 2.

Did the District sell the POS to the best of their possible abilities? Absolutely. Do we really know why they did that? Can we take a guess that maybe someone's back was pushed up against the wall? Maybe?

Kev what would happen if tomorrow Anderson let out news that he was going to outsource the entire Delta ramp lock stock and barrel? Not to put you down bro but where would you be in trying to stop that? 

I just think there's a lot more to this story then we know about publicly. IMO

 

[WeAAsles]

Looking at all of this, what is the better option to hold out for?
The FT/PT ratios are the only thing that I can think of. There has to be clarity on that before I make my vote next Friday.
The company assured the District that UGS is an outside vendor and will NOT infringe in our scope in any way. That just needs to be put into writing as well.
Everything else is pretty much cleaned up from the mess we got.
 
No one mentioned any out packages though. But there are some rumors (maybe wild ones) that they would offer 5000.00 for every year of service with no bridge medical. I'd like to believe this one since lot of people would bite on this. The last ones were kind of crappy, IMHO. In a way, I'm glad that this is outside the scope of this agreement, (that could lead to people signing a worse agreement)  but if the company offers this, all the merrier......

If it's not in your contract then I don't see who is going to clarify anything for you? It's not in your contract and that's it.

The company tried ripping you to shreds down to PT and your operation fell apart. Hopefully they learned from that and it never happens again. But if it's not in writing in your contract then yes they can try it again sometime in the future if they're that stupid. And their customers can flock away like a bunch of seagulls after there's no more meat left on the carcass too. That's their choice?

So the FT/PT issue. There's no language now, there's no language in the TA and if you vote no there will still be no language.

Sorry if that sounds cold T5 but that's just how I see it right now.

 

[Kev3188]

Kev I'm not trying to defend the guy cause I don't know him at all. But I've talked enough about the situation of one group coming in with a contract and one coming in pretty much without one.

This guy Klemm was dealing with Smisek and his team which we've seen were nothing but pure skel scuzz. How do any of us know what was said by the company to the IAM negotiators in that room at the time? How do we know that they didn't give them some type of doomsday threat that may have been far worse than what they finally passed? They also turned down TA 1 which from what I understand secured more jobs than crapola option # 2.

Did the District sell the POS to the best of their possible abilities? Absolutely. Do we really know why they did that? Can we take a guess that maybe someone's back was pushed up against the wall? Maybe?

Kev what would happen if tomorrow Anderson let out news that he was going to outsource the entire Delta ramp lock stock and barrel? Not to put you down bro but where would you be in trying to stop that? 

I just think there's a lot more to this story then we know about publicly. IMO

Where would I be? On the street. That's the reality of at will employment.

UAL employees aren't in that boat, yet Klemm & co. brought back a TA worse than /anything/ we have here at DL. It's so sh*tty that the company (!) decided to reopen it early.

...and in doing so further eroded the credibility of the IAM, of course...

That doesn't even touch on his deliberate moves to make it harder for people to run for office.

DL 141 is acting counter to everything labor generally stands for, and Klemm's driving the truck.