Downward Spiral?
- Thread starter emily
- Start date
- Thread Starter
- #17
What's reasonable? Well let's see. Jay Leno just signed a contract for $25 million/yr. Is that reasonable? Many athletes make millions a year. Is that reasonable? I know a twentysomething girl selling cell phones making six figures. Is that reasonable? Is it reasonable that a Jetblue captain makes $121/hr while a Southwest captain makes $165? What's reasonable is whatever you can get somebody to pay you. Tell us if this is reasonable. To fly from Long Beach to NY takes about 5 hours. If you want to drive that it would take about 5 DAYS. Yet, because of Jetblue you can make the 5 hour choice and actually do it CHEAPER than the 5 day choice! Is that reasonable? Five hours vs five days! Wake up! Air travel was never meant to be cheap and employees should not settle for cheap. I realize there are a lot of pilots on the street and many have no choice right now. But you people are talking about a correction in the wrong direction.You people are being taken advantage of and you need to quit giving your tickets away and start "correcting" up.
The economy is improving and believe it or not people are willing to pay more for the 5 hour choice than the 5 day choice.
JUSTPLANECRAZY and V1ROTATE.......Wouldn't You?
The economy is improving and believe it or not people are willing to pay more for the 5 hour choice than the 5 day choice.
JUSTPLANECRAZY and V1ROTATE.......Wouldn't You?
Yeah right, people are happy to pay more for their tickets to pay for that labor cost too--that's why a 15-17 year USAir pilot has actually been on the payroll for about 7 years, and furloughed the rest of the time. And probably has his resume in at Jetblue! Management at USAir is no doubt a major part of the problem, but ALPA needs to stand up and take a bow too. As for reasonable, Emily is arguing for what the market will bear. Nothing wrong with that. If Barry Bonds can fill Giants stadium, he's "worth" what they pay him. When Alex Rodrguez doesn't do it for the Rangers, he gets traded. So when your employer furloughs you, the "market" is sending a signal. But if you play the game Emily's way, you never get off the Cyclotron. Be ready for a wild financial ride. And if Jetblue, Southwest, and other LCC's can get the efficiency to keep the cost low, and everyone employed and on the payroll, maybe they do have a better model? After all is said and done, the JBLU pilots are in the middle of the pack, and the Southwest ones near the top, after their stock and profitsharing are figured in.
Emily...is Prozac out of the question? Geez...
Since it now seems that you are the guru of what is and what is not reasonable in this industry, I have a question. You have seen the above posted pay scales. Please enlighten us all as to what the dollar figure is that you personally deem reasonable? Remember, don't try to justify it, just give us a dollar figure.
V1
Since it now seems that you are the guru of what is and what is not reasonable in this industry, I have a question. You have seen the above posted pay scales. Please enlighten us all as to what the dollar figure is that you personally deem reasonable? Remember, don't try to justify it, just give us a dollar figure.
V1
BoeingBoy
Veteran
- Nov 9, 2003
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Emily, Emily, Emily,
The drive vs fly cost comparison is faulty logic that's probably been around longer than you have. Why do you think air travel is considered mass transit - cause it's cheaper than driving. It was cheaper to fly before JetBlue ever bought a plane. It was cheaper to fly before Southwest ever discovered the East or West Coast.
Take it from an old US Airways pilot who's been through what you're going through - and we at U aren't done yet. Blaming someone else won't make your travails any easier. Just like cards, life is dealt face down. Sometimes we get a pleasant surprise, sometimes not.
Jim
The drive vs fly cost comparison is faulty logic that's probably been around longer than you have. Why do you think air travel is considered mass transit - cause it's cheaper than driving. It was cheaper to fly before JetBlue ever bought a plane. It was cheaper to fly before Southwest ever discovered the East or West Coast.
Take it from an old US Airways pilot who's been through what you're going through - and we at U aren't done yet. Blaming someone else won't make your travails any easier. Just like cards, life is dealt face down. Sometimes we get a pleasant surprise, sometimes not.
Jim
Apples to apples...... First year JetBlue first officer will make $55,000-$60,000. First year at any legacy carrier (if there were any such thing right now), pays half that. Upgrade at a legacy carrier (if there were one upgrading instead of downgrading) is in the 7-10 range. If someone were to be hired with JB, make double their first year (when the pay really matters so as not to start behind), the same pilot upgraded at 18 months (5.5-8.5 years ahead of their counterpart), works for a little less for a successfull fun company and is not furloughed in his third year (Like myself and most of you with time to haunt the board), how far ahead will he or she (yes Emily, you also) be?Hmmm The benefit of just not having stress every seven years? Probably ten years on your life span, no price on that one. Fun at work, enjoyable atmosphere, also priceless (I worked at MetroJet---ie "C" scale or second year about what JB pays first for that atmosphere). A retirement paid up front to the employee which cannot be taken away when the negotiating committee negotiates your job away (ask 4,000 USAirways pilots about that one). Last and certainly not least, that 2% bonus you automatically save on the ALPA magazine.... Nearly forgot the couple hundred thousand you would be ahead in the first five years due to an ACTUAL upgrade? What would that be with interest accrued by the time Captain came around with a legacy (ie. now failing) carrier?
You all at JetBlue have got a good thing. I for one am envious and hope my # comes up to come talk Mr. Melonas out of a job!
Emilyemily said:
You must bee the incarnation of “GREED†“SELFISHNESS†and “INCOMPETANCEâ€!
If NBC would be in trouble like the aviation business they would fire him first. And don’t compare your self or the Pilots in general to one person. Compare your self to all the people that are behind the cameras. Leno would have to be compared to your F/A, since his face is all over and people see him and in an aircraft it is the F/A and not the cockpit.
A Bus driver driving a bus doesn’t make as much as any of you. He works harder endures longer hours, works more and doesn’t live in luxury hotels like you on overnights. All your reasons are arguments why pilots should not be in management or run a company (thanks good there are pilots out there who have their senses in the right spot and know what they do – like JetBlue). With your opinion you drive a company into bankruptcy.
Air travel was meant to be a part of transportation and transportation is inexpensive. If you just want to have high paying customers, start firing 75% of all employees at every airline, reduce aircrafts and outfit them with First Class only.
Economy will hopefully improve and all unemployed employees will get their jobs back. That is not a reason to start being greedy. If there had been some modesty in the first place, many airlines would not be in trouble. Why did JetBlue survive this and is growing, while DL, UA, AA and U are struggling. One of the reasons is because of employees like you.
Reasonable is what the airline can afford without that any one has to stand in a line at the local soup kitchen and doesn’t know how to pay the bills. And don’t tell me that you cant live on less than $300 an hour if others can live on $10.
Go and work the same shifts as the mechanics (also well educated) and live of what they make. You will be surprised what they can do with their income. So don’t complain and start like any addict and go into a rehab. Learn how to be modest, caring and take classes in economics.
That's a great description of what is going on throughout the industry.LaBradford22 said:
Let’s take it one step further, and look 5 years down the road. JetBlue and other LCC airline employees have 10+ years under their belt, fares are reasonable, everyone is happy and making money.
Along comes a businessman who sees the great profits and decides to start up a ULCC (Ultra Low Cost Carrier) As a new carrier, he can pay start paying wages at 25-50% below the LCCs. He gets a great deal from Boeing on a new 120-seater they have designed and, voila! He can now undercut the LCCs in ticket price, forcing them to match.
The LCCs have to match the fares of the ULCC carrier, and their yields begin to shrink while the ULCC yields continue to grow. You know what happens after this…..
This cycle continues until airline jobs become just like a job at McDonalds is now. There will be a huge revolving door installed to accommodate the many 17 and 18year olds fresh out of high school that want to work for an airline.
I get where you're coming from and I agree to a certain extent. However, I believe the bottom is higher than McDonalds (albeit lower than today). Below a certain level, the quality of the airline will suffer too much.
Where is that point? Beats me.
Where is that point? Beats me.
Wnrforlife
I have to agree mweiss that the bottom is higher than McDonalds. You need a certain education to operate an aircraft or repair an aircraft. The education you need to work at McDonalds is considerably lower. In that sense your comparison can't hold.
Having said that, I am certain, that the days of salaries like DL and NW are over and they will in the future be adjusted like they have been adjusted in other industries. Pilots will still make more than F/A’s but it will not be as drastic as it is today.
I have to agree mweiss that the bottom is higher than McDonalds. You need a certain education to operate an aircraft or repair an aircraft. The education you need to work at McDonalds is considerably lower. In that sense your comparison can't hold.
Having said that, I am certain, that the days of salaries like DL and NW are over and they will in the future be adjusted like they have been adjusted in other industries. Pilots will still make more than F/A’s but it will not be as drastic as it is today.
Also, when airline pilot as a profession was in its hay day, there were relatively few specialized jobs. Now, nearly everything from computers to sales is specialized and the thought of a highly specialized professional is not what it used to be.
The only real argument we have in being held above other specialized professions, is that we can lose our medical and are required to retire at 60.
The only real argument we have in being held above other specialized professions, is that we can lose our medical and are required to retire at 60.
The thing is that a LCC's costs increase over time...with the most significant increases in labor as higher rates are negotiated. An "ultra LCC" would come in with rates that are comparatively lower than JB's or other "LCCs" in 10 years, but that will be after the current LCCs have had labor costs increase to levels outside of a typical LCC. You can essentially say that an LCC today falls out of that categorization several years down the road. It's the simple economics that the more established a company becomes, the higher their wages will be...especially those that are union negotiated. So no..."ULCCs" will not come about in 10 years and pay below today's LCC rates. They will simply be LCCs and pay below the levels that today's LCCs have risen to.WNrforlife said:
I don't see McDonalds in the future...just the typical "new company with comparatively lower labor costs than established companies."
The ultimate solution to this is to match wage increases to employee value increases. That is, nobody can deny that employees become more valuable over time, due to better understanding of the company and its culture and procedures. But the wage increases must be commensurate with the value increase in order to protect the company from being undercut by newcomers.
That's what I see the endgame looking like.
That's what I see the endgame looking like.
Pay to fly by the milemweiss said:
BY MARTIN J. MOYLAN
Pioneer Press
Looking to reward its frequent fliers and win new ones, Sun Country Airlines is pitching a "VIP Club" rewards program that provides round-trip air travel to 28 destinations for $29 plus 9 cents a mile.
Under the program, now in a quiet "soft launch" mode, there are no blackout dates or Saturday night stay restrictions. Fares are pretty much in line with those for 21-day advance purchases. But there are no advance purchase requirements for VIP tickets. Prices are the same even on the day of departure. And the fares include all taxes and fees, Sun Country says.
VIP members must pay a $99 initiation fee and $12 monthly membership charge. At this time, VIP members can only buy tickets for themselves. But Mendota Heights-based Sun Country plans to soon offer a family VIP plan, which would cost $15 a month and permit the purchase of tickets for anyone in a member's immediate family.
"It's simple and that's what people want," said Terry Trippler, a travel expert with cheapseats.com. "For years, people have been saying, 'Can't you just charge by the mile?' Sun Country has said, 'Yes.' "
Trippler figures people flying at least six times a year would come out ahead by joining the program.
"And if there is a seat on the plane, you get to go," he said. "No VIP member will wait at the gate and watch a plane back out with empty seats because the seats were in the wrong class (and unavailable as a reward for frequent fliers). The only way you won't get to go is if the plane is full."
The downside of the program is Sun Country's schedule, Trippler said. It doesn't fly every day to all its destinations and on many routes it only has one flight a day.
"This isn't designed for the business traveler who wants to leave early in the morning and come home late in the afternoon," Trippler said.
The VIP program also provides expedited check-ins and discounts on everything from hotels and parking to dining and car rentals, said Sun Country president and CEO T. Jay Salmen.
"We felt this would reward our frequent fliers but not have the administration and other overhead costs that the typical mileage program has," he said. "And we tried to make this plan easy to understand. We could have said 7.5 cents to Denver and 10.75 cents to New York. But we know what we need to make per seat when we fly."
Salmen figures VIP members would come out ahead after 2.5 trips on Sun Country.
At times, special advance purchase fares may be lower than VIP fares. But VIP members would always know the maximum price they would pay for a ticket, Salmen said. In the past three weeks, some 250 travelers have enrolled in the program, he added.
Sun Country Airlines appears to be on its way to establishing itself — again — as the No. 2 airline in the Twin Cities. Last year, it flew more than 750,000 passengers to or from the Twin Cities. By next year, Sun Country expects it could fly more passengers out of the Twin Cities than anyone but Northwest and its regional carriers, Mesaba and Pinnacle.
In terms of Twin Cities passenger traffic, Sun Country isn't far behind American and United airlines and is already attracting more travelers than low-fare carriers ATA, AirTran, Frontier and America West.
- Thread Starter
- #30
JUSTPLANECRAZYJust Plane Crazy said:You must bee the incarnation of “GREED†“SELFISHNESS†and “INCOMPETANCEâ€![/b][/SIZE][/color]
If NBC would be in trouble like the aviation business they would fire him first. And don’t compare your self or the Pilots in general to one person. Compare your self to all the people that are behind the cameras. Leno would have to be compared to your F/A, since his face is all over and people see him and in an aircraft it is the F/A and not the cockpit.
A Bus driver driving a bus doesn’t make as much as any of you. He works harder endures longer hours, works more and doesn’t live in luxury hotels like you on overnights. All your reasons are arguments why pilots should not be in management or run a company (thanks good there are pilots out there who have their senses in the right spot and know what they do – like JetBlue). With your opinion you drive a company into bankruptcy.
Air travel was meant to be a part of transportation and transportation is inexpensive. If you just want to have high paying customers, start firing 75% of all employees at every airline, reduce aircrafts and outfit them with First Class only.
Economy will hopefully improve and all unemployed employees will get their jobs back. That is not a reason to start being greedy. If there had been some modesty in the first place, many airlines would not be in trouble. Why did JetBlue survive this and is growing, while DL, UA, AA and U are struggling. One of the reasons is because of employees like you.
Reasonable is what the airline can afford without that any one has to stand in a line at the local soup kitchen and doesn’t know how to pay the bills. And don’t tell me that you cant live on less than $300 an hour if others can live on $10.
Go and work the same shifts as the mechanics (also well educated) and live of what they make. You will be surprised what they can do with their income. So don’t complain and start like any addict and go into a rehab. Learn how to be modest, caring and take classes in economics.
Are you through with your adolescent tirade? Finish rubbing on your pimple cream and take a deep breath.
If you want to engage in debate like an adult you need to learn something. You will maintain a lot more credibility if you stick to the issues and do not resort to name calling. That's what children and liberals do. The obvious point in my last post is that accross most careers, people generally get paid what the market will bear. Of course that amount is often a moving target. In any industry where you have a large group or large groups of generic labor there is always a tug of war between management and labor as far as what that number is, and who should get what piece of the pie that the market provides. When you have a company paying their employees a lot less than others are making to do the same job, it eventually puts downward pressure on everybody. I'm not just picking on Jetblue, they just happen to be the media darlings right now. Also I did not expect them to pay the higher average rates right out of the gate. My desire is to get paid as much as I can and allow my company to profit. There is nothing greedy, selfish or incompetent about that. It's common sense. What that figure is I don't know because it's moving more now than ever. But Jetblue and other "LCC'S" should try and lift their own boat at some point. Thus my question, when will they try and do that. If Jetblue continues to prosper, you are pretty naive if you don't think that the employees eventually will. Just look at the Southwest F/A's.
