Forbes Article on Trainer

[WorldTraveler]

I do just fine, thank you.

I actually know the facts and know how to use them.... you are grasping at straws and trying desperately to argue points about which you have no knowledge.

most people would characterize someone like that a fool.

and, no, it is still about Trainer.

you and others made claims because you copied them out of an article.

should we rehearse the same inaccurate information which you parroted from the article and why it shows that DL did not make an error?

how about you start with summarizing the points you have made, the counter argument that I provided, and prove why you are still right?

 

[FrugalFlyerv2.0]

should we rehearse the same inaccurate information which you parroted from the article and why it shows that DL did not make an error?

how about you start with summarizing the points you have made, the counter argument that I provided, and prove why you are still right?

 
I will gladly do that once you show / post the data where the DL-VS JV has brought in more revenue over the same period of time than any other airline partnership over the same period of time.
 
I'm throwing you a softball, why don't you knock it out of the park, champ.

 

[WorldTraveler]

no, you are arguing for the sake or arguing.

I told you that I am not digging thru earnings calls to find what other JVs have claimed to have done in the first year.

and I don't care if you believe it or not.

if you want to call me a liar, however, YOU have to find the evidence to prove me wrong.

You repeatedly argued the point about the size of LHR vs. NRT and when that data was presented, you don't have the moral integrity to admit that it is impossible that the data overwhelmingly shows that NRT is a far larger operation for DL than LHR is.

you are arguing in an attempt to find some way to win.

admit you have been wrong on a dozen other issues about which you have tried to argue instead of looking for yet more that you hope will stick this time.

and, the topic is about Trainer. you supported the assertions that Trainer was a mistake. Find the evidence to prove it before arguing about sixteen other things that you are equally clueless about.

 

[FrugalFlyerv2.0]

The fact that you cannot find the data (because it does not exist) to back up your made-up claim just proves that you are a liar and a fraud.
 
So yes, I will call you what you are:  fraud and a liar.
 
Good day!

 

[WorldTraveler]

no, the fact that you call someone a liar because they don't do your homework for you shows what you are made of.

You have been proven wrong repeatedly.

Start with providing factual basis that DL's refinery was a mistake. You hung on the coattails of sloppy reporting now show your justification for those claims.

 

[FrugalFlyerv2.0]

no, the fact that you call someone a liar because they don't do your homework for you shows what you are made of.

You have been proven wrong repeatedly.

Start with providing factual basis that DL's refinery was a mistake. You hung on the coattails of sloppy reporting now show your justification for those claims.

 
Not so fast fraudster, you are not spinning your way out of this lie.
 
As I told you before:  once you show the data to back up your claim that the DL-VS JV has generated more $$$ in a given amount of time than any other airline partnership, then I'll do my part.  Furthermore, if you're proven to be correct - I will apologize to you for calling you a liar and a fraud.  But remember the triple dog dare challenge is for you to back up your specific claim with facts.
 
PS.  I can keep this up all day.
 

 

[robbedagain]

Lets see  DL spends millions on an Oil Refinery   yet other airlines reap more benes from it than DL itself....   what the heck is wrong with that pic!!!!!!

 

[WorldTraveler]

DL never said that its actions wouldn't help other airlines.

DL said its goal was to reduce the crack spread and reduce DL's fuel costs.

DL did that and the value of what DL has gained is far more than what it has invested in Trainer.

Any other assessment of DL's investment being a failure is not based on accurate facts.

thank you for discussing the topic at hand, however.

 

[WorldTraveler]

those people who want to continue to argue that DL's investment in Trainer has been a loss would do well to read the data directly from the Energy Information Administration of the US Dept. of Energy.

http://www.eia.gov/petroleum/supply/weekly/pdf/wpsrall.pdf

there is tons of data and it will go way past a whole lot of people but those who can read it can clearly see that:

- total stocks of jet fuel are not growing but in fact reducing even while stocks of other refined products are growing.

- jet fuel production is shifting to the NE of the US (PADD 1) where Trainer is location. Other refineries in other parts of the country outside of the East coast are reducing jet fuel production except for in the Rocky Mountains, where the increase there is less than the increase in PADD 1 due to Trainer.
- The difference between the cost of jet fuel and diesel fuel has been changed because of Trainer.

on one or more of these points, the original article was factually incorrect.

all of these are market driven results of DL's decision to increase the production of jet fuel at Trainer and to provide DL with exclusive access to jet fuel produced by DL's own refinery.

The production of jet fuel is being reduced by other refiners with more of it being produced by DL's Trainer refinery and as other refiners try to push thru jet fuel price increases. Given that jet fuel costs less than diesel, other refiners will continue to have an incentive to produce diesel fuel over jet fuel but they will keep reducing jet fuel production to try to restore the previous pricing balance. Meanwhile, Trainer accounts for higher and higher percentages of total jet fuel production in the US and DL retains that production for its own use.

these market dynamics will take years of readjustment - but anyone who reads the data and understands economics can clearly see that DL has redefined the jet fuel market in the US and those changes are already benefitting DL , even if other users also benefit now, with DL being in a position to have access to a disproportionate share of the jet fuel supply in the future.

It is a completely different type of strategy than Allegis or virtually any other strategy which airlines have used to own subsidiaries.

 

[FrugalFlyerv2.0]

there is tons of data and it will go way past a whole lot of people but those who can read it can clearly see that:

How nice, a character assassination.
Looks like the 'victim' has returned to being a culprit.
 

- total stocks of jet fuel are not growing but in fact reducing even while stocks of other refined products are growing.

 
That is true. Stocks are down approx. 2.5% from 1 year ago and approx. 10% from 2 years ago (Table 1).
 

- jet fuel production is shifting to the NE of the US (PADD 1) where Trainer is location. Other refineries in other parts of the country outside of the East coast are reducing jet fuel production except for in the Rocky Mountains, where the increase there is less than the increase in PADD 1 due to Trainer.

Overall Table 3 shows that net production of jet A has increased ~10% over 2 years.
Table 2 and Table 9 show that net production has increased in every region compared to what it was 2 years ago.
Are you drawing conclusions on the weekly data? That's weak.
 

- The difference between the cost of jet fuel and diesel fuel has been changed because of Trainer.

How did you ever conclude that from just this weekly report?
 

The production of jet fuel is being reduced by other refiners

But I think the data in Table 2, 3 and 9 do not support this conclusion.
 

- but anyone who reads the data and understands economics can clearly see that DL has redefined the jet fuel market in the US

 
I don't quite see that from the link you presented.  But I'm not an economics or petrochemical industry expert.

 

[WorldTraveler]

of course you don't see it but that doesn't mean it isn't true because you don't know how to interpret the data.

As much as it hurts you to admit it, there is verifiable data that shows that Trainer, a DL operated subsidiary, has changed the economics of the jet fuel market and DL is increasingly gaining control of a product which other refiners are increasingly choosing not to produce.

 

[FrugalFlyerv2.0]

As I said, I'm not an expert, but I have not seen 1 shred of data that supports your theory that DL is altering the diesel fuel market. Wasn't the Trainer facility closed/mothballed when DL bought it?  So how could / would a facility that was already not producing a product (diesel) at the time DL has purchased it all of the sudden affect its price. 
 
 
Truly one has to have a suspension of disbelief to digest every "story" you write.
 

 
 
 
Is there anything in the universe that DL or a DL subsidiary does not affect?  Seriously dude,

 

[WorldTraveler]

As I said, I'm not an expert, but I have not seen 1 shred of data that supports your theory that DL is altering the diesel fuel market.

see you can't even get the basic facts right.

DL is not involved in the diesel fuel market.

Trainer produces jet fuel to the greatest degree possible and to a higher percentage than any other refinery in the US.

 

[FrugalFlyerv2.0]

DL is not involved in the diesel fuel market.

 

- The difference between the cost of jet fuel and diesel fuel has been changed because of Trainer.

 
So who's talking out of their ass?
 

 

[WorldTraveler]

no, you simply have no idea what you are talking about.

Jet fuel and diesel fuel are both petroleum distillates.

Jet fuel sold at a significant premium to diesel fuel before Trainer began operating.

The crack spread is the difference between two types of products.

The increase in production of jet fuel inverted the price relationship between diesel fuel and jet fuel.

you clearly don't understand the principles or what happened but you are willing to call other people names because you aren't big enough to admit that you really don't know half of what someone else might.

I feel sorry for you.

I really do.