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[Bear96]

How has AMFA lost?

Um, they went on strike, were permanently replaced, and can now only come back unconditionally as positions become available and at the new scab wages and work rules. In the world of labor unions and strikes, that is called a "loss." (I kinda thought you would have known that.)

Lets review the basics of Unionism 101. In contrast to the "loss" described above (and what AMFA went through), a "win" for a union has some or all of the following characteristics: the company ceased operations for a time, forcing them back to the table. No scabs were employed. A final contract agreement was reached that was better than what management was offering pre-strike.

Now, which of those "wins" happened in this case?

It is kind of pathetic and just shows how bad things have gotten for airline unions to even have to go over such basic concepts with someone like you who should know such basic principles.

How can you insinuate that AMFA should have voted on a t/a that would eliminate HALF of their membership? Please refrain from the standard, "Well, at least some members whould have a job.". If that is your thought process the answer whould be, "NO! There would not be a job. There would only be a place where people went that were not appreciated for their skills and treated like indentured servants."

I think you are putting words in my mouth and making assumptions about my "thought process." I was not "insinuating" anything about what the membership should have done. I am merely making the blindingly obvious (to everyone except the die hard unionistas) statement that AMFA LOST, and it is time to recognize that fact.

But since you brought it up ... If asked in the weeks leading up to the strike, I would have "insinuated" that the AMFA members take an objective look at the situation (instead of listening to union blowhards like you and AMFA "leaders" who appear to have a vested interest in keeping the myth alive for some reason), and get the heck out and look for work elsewhere, if they really believed they were worth more in the labor market than what NW was willing to pay.

ALL the remaining strikers have won "big time"! How? Because they have their integrity and can go through life knowing that they did the right thing when the time called for it.

You know, that would be funny if you weren't being serious. Sounds like someone on the union payroll with very little at risk. Sometimes it is time to fight the good fight -- true enough. But it was obvious to anyone who bothered to get educated about the subject that this was a futile effort. It's the "right thing" to refuse to react appropriately when your employer is losing millions and is headed into bankruptcy? How irresponsible.

NWA is the one who has lost. They might have won the battle but will certainly have lost the war. I tell everyone I know not to fly NWA. I see the reports of maintenance problems and pass them along to inform others.

OK, you keep on telling yourself that if you need to believe it to get through the day.

How's the morale and attitude of the remaining other unions?

Listen up: Here's another Unionism 101 lesson (gratis; you can thank me later): The morale and attitude of airline union members sucks. This is so at any airline (with the possible exception of WN). It has always been true, it is true today, and it will remain true forevermore into the future, no matter what. Management could give $10,000 cash bonuses to every union member tomorrow, no strings attached, just for the heck of it, and airline union members would still find something to complain about. Low morale among airline union members is an inviolable rule of aviation (kinda like the concept that a wing will stall when a certain angle of attack is exceeded). That's just The Way It Is in the airline biz. It's The Rule.

People like you seem to like to perpetuate The Rule for reasons known only to yourselves. I guess it keeps you in business for a little while longer.

Bear96, if you work for USAIR, that’s where you belong worse airline ever as far as employee moral goes. (Get your own dam house in order)

Nope, don't work for USAirways, never have.

FWIW, their house is a mess too. But at least none of them have been replaced by scabs in an embarrasingly executed strike that failed miserably.

 

[upsilon]

Bear, you have really nailed it!

 

[groundcontrol]

Nope, don't work for USAirways, never have.

FWIW, their house is a mess too. But at least none of them have been replaced by scabs in an embarrasingly executed strike that failed miserably.

EVERYONES house is a mess...THEY ALL may as well have struck and had scabs replace them...its an embarassment what THEY ALL have allowed to happen at their airline. No one would ever be able to live on the wages a new person has to start out at. The SCABS don't even want to work for them.

 

[jenny@nw]

Listen up: Here's another Unionism 101 lesson (gratis; you can thank me later): The morale and attitude of airline union members sucks. This is so at any airline (with the possible exception of WN). It has always been true, it is true today, and it will remain true forevermore into the future, no matter what. Management could give $10,000 cash bonuses to every union member tomorrow, no strings attached, just for the heck of it, and airline union members would still find something to complain about. Low morale among airline union members is an inviolable rule of aviation (kinda like the concept that a wing will stall when a certain angle of attack is exceeded). That's just The Way It Is in the airline biz. It's The Rule.

That's not true in general. I remember once....... long time ago..... we did have high morale.

I think morale has absolutely nothing to do with unionism. It's just an excuse.

All and all the blame should be pointed to the people who actually have the control to dictate and change things-

The BOD.

The union is under contract to provide its members a job and look out for their best interest.

I'm gonna have to gratis you later. B)

 

[Bear96]

That's not true in general. I remember once....... long time ago..... we did have high morale.

Sorry, it is true in general. Maybe "a long time ago" things were different. But "a long time ago" unions knew how and when to use the powerful strike weapon to their members' advantage, not detriment. I am talking about what is relevant today.

All and all the blame should be pointed to the people who actually have the control to dictate and change things-

The BOD.

Certainly airline BODs are not blameless in all of this. (Maybe they should have stood up to unions years ago? I dunno.) But neither are they solely at fault.

The union is under contract to provide its members a job and look out for their best interest.

Exactly. And AMFA failed miserably on both of those counts.

 

[local 12 proud]

Listen up: Here's another Unionism 101 lesson (gratis; you can thank me later): The morale and attitude of airline union members sucks. This is so at any airline (with the possible exception of WN). It has always been true, it is true today, and it will remain true forevermore into the future, no matter what. Management could give $10,000 cash bonuses to every union member tomorrow, no strings attached, just for the heck of it, and airline union members would still find something to complain about. Low morale among airline union members is an inviolable rule of aviation (kinda like the concept that a wing will stall when a certain angle of attack is exceeded). That's just The Way It Is in the airline biz. It's The Rule.

Are you now, or have you ever been a union member? You speak with reckless abandonment about things you obviously don't know. you lump everyone into a single category, and claim the morale and attitude of airline union members suck, you claim "It has always been true, it is true today, and remain true forevermore into the future, no matter what." Who the f..k are you? are you the self appointed Omniscient Creator, the all knowing?

Your nothing more than a loudmouth company pawn, spewing your regurgitated antiunion tripe along with your cohort SCAB buddies. Try this on for size bear.." your a company bootlicker, now return to your masters lap and beg for scraps" (gratis; You can thank me Now)

 

[jenny@nw]

Sorry, it is true in general. Maybe "a long time ago" things were different. But "a long time ago" unions knew how and when to use the powerful strike weapon to their members' advantage, not detriment. I am talking about what is relevant today.
Certainly airline BODs are not blameless in all of this. (Maybe they should have stood up to unions years ago? I dunno.) But neither are they solely at fault.
Exactly. And AMFA failed miserably on both of those counts.

Well what IS relevant today is that none of the workers are getting respect from all sides. To learn what does work and what doesn't work one must do a comparison with a time when there was "High Morale".
If you truly want to be more "current" many CO workers I've encountered within the past 5 years love the company and love the CEO.

Unionism has nothing to do with morale. ZERO.

 

[Bear96]

Are you now, or have you ever been a union member?

Yup. Most of my working life has been spent as a union member (including many years as a UA F/A and AFA member -- and active in the union, BTW).

You speak with reckless abandonment about things you obviously don't know. you lump everyone into a single category, and claim the morale and attitude of airline union members suck, you claim "It has always been true, it is true today, and remain true forevermore into the future, no matter what." Who the f..k are you? are you the self appointed Omniscient Creator, the all knowing?

Take a quick trip around these boards. Any comments you see from unionized airline employees saying something positive about their employers or their jobs, feel free to cut and paste here. With the possible exception of WN (and even there, things get pretty bitter around contract negotiations time), I bet you can't find more than one or two examples, if any at all.

 

[Bear96]

Unionism has nothing to do with morale. ZERO.

Unionism isn't the sole cause of poor morale, but it is certainly a contributing factor, and probably a significant one at that. The elected union officials know they are in a PR battle to remain in office and appearances mean everything. Therefore they have a vested interest in making management out to be a bunch of greedy evildoers, a populist message that many of their members are eager to hear and ultimately internalize.

While there is some truth to the fact that some airline managers may indeed be greedy evildoers, the union has a vested interest in portraying a one-sided picture that excuses themselves from any responsibility for any difficult situation the airline finds itself in. They are motivated and eager to provide a steady stream of anti-management drivel, often over the top and inaccurate.

This is not to say unions are inherently "bad." Occassionally, when necessary, airline unions even step up to the plate and do the right thing when that is not easy to do. I believe there remains a place for unions in the airline industry today. However, I know how the union game is played, what strategies are employed and why, because I used to be on the union "inside."

Bottom line: Unions have a need to keep their members in at least some constant degree of turmoil and antipathy against their employers. When they feel it is necessary in the name of self-preservation, union leaders won't hestitate to do what they need to to fan the flames of discontent. (This is not unique to airline unions.)

 

[local 12 proud]

Yup. Most of my working life has been spent as a union member (including many years as a UA F/A and AFA member -- and active in the union, BTW).

So how much are you being paid to spread discontent, you sound like a company paid lacky, you know one of those union officials on the take.

 

[CSAR GYRENE]

Unionism isn't the sole cause of poor morale, but it is certainly a contributing factor, and probably a significant one at that. The elected union officials know they are in a PR battle to remain in office and appearances mean everything. Therefore they have a vested interest in making management out to be a bunch of greedy evildoers, a populist message that many of their members are eager to hear and ultimately internalize.

While there is some truth to the fact that some airline managers may indeed be greedy evildoers, the union has a vested interest in portraying a one-sided picture that excuses themselves from any responsibility for any difficult situation the airline finds itself in. They are motivated and eager to provide a steady stream of anti-management drivel, often over the top and inaccurate.

This is not to say unions are inherently "bad." Occassionally, when necessary, airline unions even step up to the plate and do the right thing when that is not easy to do. I believe there remains a place for unions in the airline industry today. However, I know how the union game is played, what strategies are employed and why, because I used to be on the union "inside."

Bottom line: Unions have a need to keep their members in at least some constant degree of turmoil and antipathy against their employers. When they feel it is necessary in the name of self-preservation, union leaders won't hestitate to do what they need to to fan the flames of discontent. (This is not unique to airline unions.)

<SALUTE>

 

[local 12 proud]

Take a quick trip around these boards. Any comments you see from unionized airline employees saying something positive about their employers or their jobs, feel free to cut and paste here. With the possible exception of WN (and even there, things get pretty bitter around contract negotiations time), I bet you can't find more than one or two examples, if any at all.

Give me something to cheer about, cut and paste the good news. What planet are you from?

 

[local 12 proud]

Unionism isn't the sole cause of poor morale, but it is certainly a contributing factor, and probably a significant one at that. I used to be on the union "inside."

Until you decided to become a sellout? I've seen your type cross over time after time. Your the typical traitor who probably could'nt carry his weight, so he jumped the fence in order to be a yes man or be kicked to the curb.

 

[finman]

Neither do I believe your stats!

Of course you don't. I suppose NWA is coding mechanical delays under ground ops or weather now in order to make the mechanical delays seem lower than they really are? Of course, if they were doing so, don't you think they'd be putting out press releases to tout the statistically equal performance of the current workforce? The fact that the interal statistics show this and the fact that you haven't heard about it lends additional support that the statistics are valid. (I.E, stats wouldn't be fudged for no reason). Any other conclusion defies logic.

The topics being discussed were really boring for about a month, hence the abscense on my part. I still don't understand the whole "ignore post" thing. I would assume that such a measure would only be taken to filter out those that don't add anything substantive to the discussion, of which there are certainly a few that I won't name. I don't claim to be any sort of genius or anything, but I do only post things which I think add value to a discussion, either by providing personal insight or statistics that contradict a given assertion. If those are items that you choose to ignore in all areas of your life, you will end up being very misinformed on a lot of issues. Naturally, if everything you currently believe is 100% true (which, of course, nobody can claim), then only listening to people that agree with you will not hinder you.

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

bear, "Lets review the basics of Unionism 101. In contrast to the "loss" described above (and what AMFA went through), a "win" for a union has some or all of the following characteristics: the company ceased operations for a time, forcing them back to the table. No scabs were employed. A final contract agreement was reached that was better than what management was offering pre-strike."

For sake of length I am pasting the above, not taking your words out of context. The above "wins" you mention are correct. But these do not only constitute a win. Look at EAL. None of your wins happened but labor won because lorenzo lost the war. Yes, I know NWA is still "flying" but for how long? And I repeat, the SCABS LOST their integrity.

By your post I could only theorize that you felt that AMFA members at NWA should have voted to remove their own positions. AMFA knew that NWA had SCABS hold up at hotels. So what. Again, you give me the impression that you feel AMFA should have caved. Perhaps the iam would have. But then again the iam is all about dues and NOT the membership.

What makes a person retaining their integrity so funny? Hear is a course in unionism 101, (free of charge of course), which you either have forgotten or refuse to admit is a REALITY, when you SCAB, you lose your integrity. And will always be known as a SCAB.

"OK, you keep on telling yourself that if you need to believe it to get through the day."

I tell myself that I believe in my craft & profession. I am not afraid of people knowing who I am. I can see what reality is and accept it. I will also do what my signature says at the bottom of all my posts.