"Machinists, F/A's Likely Face Uphill Fight At Delta"

[LukeAisleWalker]

the last TA, TA 3 the current contract for PMNW at this time..that is about the number of those who did not even vote!

(1000)

Exactly why AFA will be asking the NMB for a yes/no ballot. Apathy is rampant in our society when it comes to elections; it's the same for FAs, maybe even more so as we are in a job you don't "take home" with you and where so many people's strategy is to get time OFF rather than to work.

I am thinking a good 70 percent, but I dont know about 85 percent, but that's just a hunch.

If it's only 70% PMNW FAs voting (YES), then again, in my opinion, it will be a no-go.
If PMNW junior FAs are so willing to risk even the slightest possibility of their jobs being outsourced (by not voting thus losing SCOPE and opening up even the slightest chance of foreign nationals being brought in to fly Asia-US flights), just to immediately get Adays, then there's not much else left to say.

 

[Dignity]

Exactly why AFA will be asking the NMB for a yes/no ballot. Apathy is rampant in our society when it comes to elections; it's the same for FAs, maybe even more so as we are in a job you don't "take home" with you and where so many people's strategy is to get time OFF rather than to work.

I know what you are saying but aviation is a passion for a lot of people and its not just a job or something you leave some where.

(this entire website is a prime example)

but I know what you mean, some will view it as just any job to get away from!

(I certainly hope it is not, they dont care..at all!)

If it's only 70% PMNW FAs voting (YES), then again, in my opinion, it will be a no-go.

so much as changed with our group since the bankruptcy, a lot left, a lot retired, they hired and some have been on reserve going passed a decade on and off so its just difficult to gauge how this is going to turn out.

what is interesting is the ones who were so determined about union all the way up to the announcement of the merger and now they are saying they are going to forfeit unionization and the contract. taking those into consideration and a lot leaving,

its anyones guess!

 

[aislehopper]

Apathy is why a standard election should be run. If the afa-CWA cannot convince 50%+1 to vote, it proves that the majority of us do not want a union. Calling or logging in over a four week period in the privacy of your own home is not a very hard step to take if you truly want something. A Laker Ballot would allow a motivated minority of us who want a union to out vote the majority of us who are either apathetic or do not want the union.


IMHO, unless we can get a very solid majority actively voting for a union, we will not have the solidarity necessary to successfully negotiate. That is why I am in favor of decertifying the afa. If all of the afa activists are right and we get screwed by management without the union, we will then have the solidarity to overwhelmingly vote in a union and management will know that our negotiators have the vast majority of us standing behind them.

If we vote in a union by a narrow majority, there will always be enough PMD F/A's who will feel that any problem is due to the afa. If a strike vote is called, these people would vote no and might not cross a picket line. Management will know this as they negotiate and it will be to our detriment.

If I am right and the afa is unnecessary, the PMNW F/A's will get raises and save over $500/year in dues. PMD will not have to pay dues and have to have the contentious NWA vs. Management atmosphere take root here. All of us will get to fly each other's equipment sooner without the threat of a USAirways/America West delay in putting the halves together.

For these reasons, we are better off without a Laker Ballot. If the afa cannot convince a solid majority of us to call or click in a regular election, it should not be our representative.

 

[Dignity]

IMHO, unless we can get a very solid majority actively voting for a union, we will not have the solidarity necessary to successfully negotiate. That is why I am in favor of decertifying the afa. If all of the afa activists are right and we get screwed by management without the union, we will then have the solidarity to overwhelmingly vote in a union and management will know that our negotiators have the vast majority of us standing behind them.

I am more concerned about the internal bickering between the group (non-union and union supporters) and those who have always claimed entitlement to union positions and always manage to be at the center of drama.

I have seen it for myself when PFAA lost dues check off and nearly half the Flight Attendants just stopped paying their dues and the issue the union went on about regarding those people (even though it was clear we were going to lose dues check off based simply on the language in the Teamsters contract).

save over $500/year in dues.

FWIW and you probably already know, but that amount can be claimed on your taxes (for those who may not know)

 

[LukeAisleWalker]

Apathy is why a standard election should be run. If the afa-CWA cannot convince 50%+1 to vote, it proves that the majority of us do not want a union. Calling or logging in over a four week period in the privacy of your own home is not a very hard step to take if you truly want something. A Laker Ballot would allow a motivated minority of us who want a union to out vote the majority of us who are either apathetic or do not want the union.

And conversely, if those who are anti-AFA cannot convince their FA peers to actively vote "NO"..in the privacy of their own home over a four week period, then, if the union receives more votes, it should be the bargaining representative. Since when does our democratic system reward apathy??? Those who don't take the time to get involved, research and exercise their right should not be factored into the equation. No excuses.
Our service men and women have given their lives over the years so that US citizens can excercise their right to vote..that's part of freedom. True, if one chooses the "freedom" inherent in not voting, then they are free to do so but they should have absolutely no bearing on the outcome of ANY election. Apathy rewarded is a sort of perversion, in my opinion.

 

[code RED]

I would think that a "Laker ballot" would eradicate ANY apathy(one way or the other)

Yes/No ??

 

[Dignity]

I would think that a "Laker ballot" would eradicate ANY apathy(one way or the other)

Yes/No ??

I think it should be a Laker Ballot.

based on the sheer size of the next upcoming election and for the fact.. continuing to allow
those who do not participate in the process at all, basically count as a vote. (that's just not right)

it does need to change..

however..

my only concern is a former Union President on the NMB if that change is made, that can be interpreted as given one side an unfair advantage or influencing the change or a biased decision (regarding this particular election)

...even if it is not the case

I think if it is changed (at this time) it is going to be an issue.

 

[WorldTraveler]

Anyone even remotely involved with labor issues in the US knows that the DL representation elections will be some of the most significant in years - perahaps decades - for the labor movement in the US.

That is precisely why the elections need to be handled using the most common precedents and laws that have been used, esp. in the US aviation industry. This is not the time for labor or mgmt to be appealing for a rewrite or reinterpretation of the laws and if they do, then the case likely will be tied up in court for years with devastating effects on all DL and NW people. Play fair and the issue will be decided quickly - and everyone can move on; trying to hold onto something that isn't necessarily what the majority wants will ensure nobody wins.

Apathy is a sad byproduct of democracies but it incumbent on both sides to make their points and to get people to vote. The latest national elections prove that people will be motivated to vote if they genuinely believe there are issues which matter to them and which they can influence through their vote. That is the strength of a democracy and as soon as we start dismantling it, you can bet the pendulum will swing the opposite direction before very long.

As for the timeline of the last FA vote at DL, DL's future at the time was still far from certain.... it was not until the merger with NW was officially consummated (legally) that there could be a collective sigh of relief that DL and NW had decided their fates. The recent legal changes (which I believe took place after the latest DL FA vote) ensured that there would be no "stapling" of workers from one company onto another company's seniority lists. While there are many issues that matter to airline employees, seniority is by far the most significant and the legal changes just about guarantee that there will never be an AA-TW style merger/acquisition again from a labor standpoint - and that was DL FA's greatest fears. Absent that issue, the support for unions at DL is far less significant.

The real issue at this point is the timing of the elections; if the FAs go first and fail to unionize, it is very unlikely that many other groups will vote to unionize. If there are only one or two other new unions at DL (if the FAs do not unionize), there will be very little ability for labor to influence the future at DL or hold sway on decisions. For unions to be effective at DL, it must include the FAs and must just about be an an or none event during the coming months.

 

[justanadd]

what is interesting is the ones who were so determined about union all the way up to the announcement of the merger and now they are saying they are going to forfeit unionization and the contract.

Are you based in SFO or the West Coast? I have never seen so many AFA pins on PMNW - and many are on very junior FA's, even LOD's.

 

[justanadd]

my only concern is a former Union President on the NMB if that change is made, that can be interpreted as given one side an unfair advantage or influencing the change or a biased decision (regarding this particular election)

...even if it is not the case

I think if it is changed (at this time) it is going to be an issue.

"Ms. Puchala has years of valuable experience, including time with the NMB,â€￾ Mike Campbell, Delta executive vice president of human resources and labor relations, said in a statement. “She enjoys broad support among the airline industry and labor community. We look forward to her confirmation to become a member of the NMB."

 

[Dignity]

all of that may be true, that is not the point.

what you need to do is look at this from both sides and step back viewing the big picture.

regarding those who will actually participate in the voting process of this particular election

*if* any changes are made at this time.

a perception or idea changes made are biased will not project sense of fairness and may also
cause a negative reaction to some who will be the ones who..

actually vote!


(I support a Laker Ballot) in case that was overlooked.

 

[Dignity]

Are you based in .....

I do not discuss union or non union issues at work (including it as a part of general conversation) or make note of who is wearing what pin.

my opinion is based on what I hear and read from people who are

on their own time.


regarding an election..

do I think it will be an issue if it is changed.

absolutely.

I can see it right now..

something sort of like..

"oh yeah, they changed it because they want their side to win" and the problem it may create.

the idea is for the process to flow smoothly while ensuring it is fair..(for all involved)

do I think it needs to change?

yes.

do I think it should change with this particular election?

no.

IMO

 

[aislehopper]

And conversely, if those who are anti-AFA cannot convince their FA peers to actively vote "NO"..in the privacy of their own home over a four week period, then, if the union receives more votes, it should be the bargaining representative. Since when does our democratic system reward apathy??? Those who don't take the time to get involved, research and exercise their right should not be factored into the equation. No excuses.
Our service men and women have given their lives over the years so that US citizens can excercise their right to vote..that's part of freedom. True, if one chooses the "freedom" inherent in not voting, then they are free to do so but they should have absolutely no bearing on the outcome of ANY election. Apathy rewarded is a sort of perversion, in my opinion.

If you read the NMB determinations, it uses the term investigator and investigation. The election is the means by which the NMB determines that the majority of the whole class and craft want a union. Therefore, it uses the 50%+1 standard. This places the burden on the union to prove that the majority of the entire class and craft want a union. So far, it has not met that burden of proof and is afraid that it cannot meet it in the future. Therefore, the afa is trying to change the rules of the game and get itself elected without a solid majority supporting it.

I do not buy in to the whole Democracy argument. Sure, we currently have a government. For it to function, someone has to be declared a winner, so I support the (s)he who has the most votes wins concept.

However, we do not have a union, and the union has the burden to prove to the investigator and the NMB that the majority of us want it. To prove this, it needs to convince the majority of us to call or click. It has the burden to change the "apathetic" to union supporters. A Laker Ballot is a way to lower the bar and game the system so the minority get what they want and can impose their will on the majority who do not want a union and who do not care.

Now, if we want to resort to the "wrap ourselves in the flag" arguments, I think that your argument needs to be refined. In actuality for most of our history, our service members have fought and died to protect us from tyranny and the imposition of foreign control over us. If you look at our history, the universal right to vote only came into vogue in the middle of the last century. It was Presidents, lawyers, legislators, and community activists that did most of the work protecting that freedom.

 

[FWAAA]

FWIW and you probably already know, but that amount can be claimed on your taxes (for those who may not know)

That's a fairly worthless deduction, since dues are included the employee bus. expense basket and only the portion of that total that exceeds 2% of your AGI is actually deductible (assuming you can itemize at all). Even if you have some excess and can deduct that excess, what marginal tax bracket are most FAs in? 15%? 25%? Even in the top tax bracket, deducting $500 would mean tax savings of only about $170. For most FAs, the savings will be much, much less.

 

[LukeAisleWalker]

The election is the means by which the NMB determines that the majority of the whole class and craft want a union. Therefore, it uses the 50%+1 standard. This places the burden on the union to prove that the majority of the entire class and craft want a union.

Then if this were true, one would have to ask one's self why under the NLRA, the voting method is simple majority rather than the RLA's high threshold of 50%+1. (In theory, it is to prohibit the disruption of interstate commerce.) But let's remember the RLA is over 75 years old. How would interstate commerce be disrupted in today's world if everyone had to make their voices heard (YES/NO)?
See the following:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwJ5EhADomw

A Laker Ballot is a way to lower the bar and game the system so the minority get what they want and can impose their will on the majority who do not want a union and who do not care.

I disagree. I would be relieved to know that the majority truly voted "NO" to AFA rather than surmising they didn't care, lost their PIN/VIN, were on an extended leave of absence (let's not forget how many are) and are disconnected from what happens at the airline.

Now, if we want to resort to the "wrap ourselves in the flag" arguments, I think that your argument needs to be refined. In actuality for most of our history, our service members have fought and died to protect us from tyranny and the imposition of foreign control over us. If you look at our history, the universal right to vote only came into vogue in the middle of the last century. It was Presidents, lawyers, legislators, and community activists that did most of the work protecting that freedom.

Freedom is freedom. One can keep peeling the layers of the onion farther and farther down to get a point across. But even if I agreed with you and gave you that point on a technical basis, wouldn't you really want to know that the majority of our peers really, really don't want representation, rather than surmising they don't because everyone starts as a "NO" vote? Do you really support winning because of an ancient law? If so, then I think perhaps you may want to check your intellectual honesty.
Have a great day.