"Machinists, F/A's Likely Face Uphill Fight At Delta"

[jalbalpa]

Apathy is why a standard election should be run. If the afa-CWA cannot convince 50%+1 to vote, it proves that the majority of us do not want a union. Calling or logging in over a four week period in the privacy of your own home is not a very hard step to take if you truly want something. A Laker Ballot would allow a motivated minority of us who want a union to out vote the majority of us who are either apathetic or do not want the union.

I would buy this if only the employees on active status were eligible to vote, last year we found out that there were dead people on the list, people who had been out on medical leave for over 20 years etc.

By election time, over 10% of the total population will be out on some type of leave.

IMHO, unless we can get a very solid majority actively voting for a union, we will not have the solidarity necessary to successfully negotiate. That is why I am in favor of decertifying the afa. If all of the afa activists are right and we get screwed by management without the union, we will then have the solidarity to overwhelmingly vote in a union and management will know that our negotiators have the vast majority of us standing behind them.

The only problem here is that once the damge is done...its done. Its like saying..."oh lets drive around without car insurance, then if we get in a car accident...then we will get car insruance"

If management is allowed to outsource and expand the foreign national flying...it will almost be impossible to gain those positions back. In about 50 years the NW has managed to get 1 position back. This just doesnt fly.

If we vote in a union by a narrow majority, there will always be enough PMD F/A's who will feel that any problem is due to the afa. If a strike vote is called, these people would vote no and might not cross a picket line. Management will know this as they negotiate and it will be to our detriment.

The AFA doesn't strike, it uses CHAOS and its a completely different thing and carried out by people who volunteer. So this is a non-issue.

If I am right and the afa is unnecessary, the PMNW F/A's will get raises and save over $500/year in dues. PMD will not have to pay dues and have to have the contentious NWA vs. Management atmosphere take root here. All of us will get to fly each other's equipment sooner without the threat of a USAirways/America West delay in putting the halves together.

1. Dues are tax deductible
2. Dues are a very good investment
3. Imagine if every shop/airline that was union said the same thing.....where would we be today?

Vacation? FMLA? Overtime? Discrimination? Sick Leave? Maternity Leave? Health & Safety? Work Rules?


Below is the link to a radio interview last week with Pat Friend and Ed Gilmartin, alot of interesting information....

http://theunionedge.com/august-24%2C-2009-show

 

[dapoes]

I would buy this if only the employees on active status were eligible to vote, last year we found out that there were dead people on the list, people who had been out on medical leave for over 20 years etc.

By election time, over 10% of the total population will be out on some type of leave.


The only problem here is that once the damge is done...its done. Its like saying..."oh lets drive around without car insurance, then if we get in a car accident...then we will get car insruance"

If management is allowed to outsource and expand the foreign national flying...it will almost be impossible to gain those positions back. In about 50 years the NW has managed to get 1 position back. This just doesnt fly.



The AFA doesn't strike, it uses CHAOS and its a completely different thing and carried out by people who volunteer. So this is a non-issue.


1. Dues are tax deductible
2. Dues are a very good investment
3. Imagine if every shop/airline that was union said the same thing.....where would we be today?

Vacation? FMLA? Overtime? Discrimination? Sick Leave? Maternity Leave? Health & Safety? Work Rules?


Below is the link to a radio interview last week with Pat Friend and Ed Gilmartin, alot of interesting information....

http://theunionedge.com/august-24%2C-2009-show

My favorite part of that interview is when Pat Friend is in a snit over Van De Water's supposed "conflict of interest" due to her past with NW, but then fails to see any conflict with Pachula and her past at AFA. Talk about arse-plodding hypocrisy! Seems like a typical pattern for AFA.

 

[Dignity]

I think that we will continue down the normal path. Management will implement a policy. We scream, and they back off the policy.

personally would prefer the Flight Attendants consulted prior preventing that from happening in the first place.

However, were we to need a union, I like the independent option.

after witnessing first hand what happens at the "independent" ones, not me!

(I do not think I would support going independent ..ever again...if it were to come to that, "because of witnessing first hand".. how badly it can get when everyone is not on the same page)

here are some examples of what happened when we opted to go..

independent..

1. refusal to address issues, when it became apparent we were headed right into bankruptcy..

(refusal to address issues does not make it go away)


2. being told dues check would not be a problem and then it ended up a disaster when we lost it.

losing dues check off, the ability to collect dues and making it voluntary and witnessing some just stopping paying (for whatever reasons) and how that financial burden affected the entire group

3. those in key union positions who left and took management positions (after they had mouthed off solidarity and we are going to protect the contract at all cost and then turned around and gutted it)

4. those in key union positions who conduct a sympathy strike vote, we participate in the vote, they refuse to post the results and therefore refused to call for a sympathy strike and then being labeled "strike defiers" (to this day by some) when our own leaders did not follow the process themselves but shifted it back to the Flight Attendants (we could not walk when they refused to authorize anything)

I could go on...


Independent?

I do not think so.

We would fly with all of the people who make decisions with, and for us.

that pretty much happens right now..as the majority decides.

For lobbying and external matters, we can join with APFA and other unions to make our voice heard

we need to start doing that regardless, as Flight Attendants it is important to support across the industry and each other regardless of where we are employed, focusing doing the right thing and taking care of ourselves and importantly the profession!

However, the problem with independents is that they can be raided.

in our situation it did not appear we were being raided.. because for the most part.. they didn't raid us, it seemed as though the majority of Flight Attendants were begging them to help us!

a real example was being in one of the strongest labor unions in the country only to turn around go independent and watch it all go out the window and then those who were in leadership positions ended up taking off when it hit the fan.

We saw the afa do it to PFAA. The afa was even trying to do it to APFA back in the early to mid 1990's. Also, unions tend to radicalize over time. What might start with a group that tries to find the best course for the company and the union employees may be replaced by people with axes to grind or are just generally radical.

what I tend to notice in these ideas of being "radicals" is simply its not really the group rather than a handful of people in key leadership positions who just do not seem to grasp the concept or really know how to be completely effective.

(that does not imply they do not know what they are doing)

it is vitally important to research the bio's and background, including how effective they were in the past...because it seems sometimes.. those who seek Union positions...well, focus on 'me' instead of 'we'...

we will have the talent to do it

no comment

 

[Dignity]

its a completely different thing and carried out by people who volunteer. So this is a non-issue.

its actually a major issue

that would be the worst case situation to occur from both parties..Management allowing it to get to that point and a Union actually carrying it through..

they have managed to create the world's largest airline (everyone will be watching)

everything that happens from this point on by Management, PMNW, PMDL will be on spotlight and center stage!

including,

1. if Management remotely attempts any continued outsourcing beyond what has already occurred it will be a PR nightmare (the idea is to restore not reduce jobs due to outsourcing for positive and lasting impressions)

*especially since unemployment in this country is hovering around the "in the toilet" level.
(some states are at record highs for unemployment)

going the outsourcing route would be, not a good idea..

at all.

2. if PMNW attempts to carry over any militant or confrontational approach dealing with Management it will be
a PR nightmare on top of the one by Management if they just happen to pull a stunt

3. if PMDL attempts to try to retain their idea of tradition by going the "lets get rid of the pre-merger people route"
you know examples such as, writing people up because they are not "us", being not so helpful at the gate to those going to training.. ignoring people, glaring at the group like they have the plague, just being straight up nasty, will not project the idea..

"we are a family"

(I have literally witnessed how any conceived in-fighting with each other from each side does nothing but cause problems during these mergers)

the past few mergers have not really given a sense of 'its being done right'

the only thing PMDL would really do is ruin the reputation by thinking they were protecting it in the first place.

Think.

right now they are at the edge of creating something incredibly successful on a global level and very great.

it would probably be a very good idea for most to focus on that going forward.

the PMDL people have a little more responsibility to prove their tradition of doing the right thing was always the case (that includes Management and PMDL employees), if they veer off course from that in any way shape or form, it will prove to the world, at this point, the tradition never existed in the first place.

*screwing over NW people is not going to project a sense of fairness.

(its not going to be a good idea at all.. it would create the ultimate Public Relations fiasco ever, especially since what NW has already gone through)

*the Union creating something and projecting that onto DL people is not going to project an idea we work well together.

such as,

unitentionally destroying a tradition by going on any "Management are meanies" campaign when we do not even know what the majority even has decided for representation or have been offered or what they intend to do (when they havent done it yet)

both sides need to really work together and come together as a group..and prove something great can happen instead of the not so great that seems to occur over and over again, in these mergers.


The result of not working well together would result in one major thing happenening.

the reputation is ruined
(a bad name does not go away)


and the final conclusion...

Management would not really have any where else to go.. if they just happen to mess it up at the worlds largest and the rest of us would just have to deal with the ruined reputation.. partly created by all.

Please dont do that.

its time to wipe the slate clean and everyone start doing the right thing or please get out of the way.

 

[LukeAisleWalker]

I am leaning toward believing that the union will be certified.

Funny! Who woulda thunk? I'm pro-contract and I predict it won't pass (by a just a couple hundred votes) and you're anti-union and you think it will!! (Aren't we terrible to have such doubt in the outcome of each of our individual causes?? "Shame, shame, shame"...as Gomer Pyle would say.)

I wonder if there are going to be odds on this in Vegas like the Super Bowl and the Oscars...
If I remember correctly from something I read recently, this will be the largest union election (number of members) in US history. Anybody know for sure?

 

[jalbalpa]

This will be the largest representational election held under the RLA, and the largest union election in the private sector of the past 30 or so years.

 

[700UW]

I believe the UAL Customer Service and Reservations in the 90s was the largest under the RLA.

 

[Dignity]

I think the word was "among" the largest elections, so that would imply its going to be a big one!

but not necessarily the largest but it would be up there as one of the largest and maybe possibly the largest ever!

 

[code RED]

I understand that the NLRB has 5 members.
I see that Wilma Liebman is the Chairman,.......followed by a Peter Schamber.

Ms. Liebman was appointed by President Obama, while Mr. Schamber is a "holdover", so I assuming that he's a Rep. Appointee.

Who are the othe 3 members?

 

[Kev3188]

I think the word was "among" the largest elections, so that would imply its going to be a big one!

but not necessarily the largest but it would be up there as one of the largest and maybe possibly the largest ever!

I would say the ramifications of this election(s) make it the most important one, if not the largest.

I understand that the NLRB has 5 members.
I see that Wilma Liebman is the Chairman,.......followed by a Peter Schamber.

Ms. Liebman was appointed by President Obama, while Mr. Schamber is a "holdover", so I assuming that he's a Rep. Appointee.

Who are the othe 3 members?

No one yet???

 

[WorldTraveler]

This is from a curent link on the NLRB website.
The Board itself has five Members and primarily acts as a quasi-judicial body in deciding cases on the basis of formal records in administrative proceedings. Board Members are appointed by the President to 5-year terms, with Senate consent, the term of one Member expiring each year. The current Members are Chairman Wilma B. Liebman and Peter C. Schaumber. (There are three vacancies on the Board.)

http://www.nlrb.gov/about_us/overview/fact_sheet.aspx

also

When a petition for an election is filed, a Board agent in one of the field offices is assigned to process it.

and

Generally applying to all employers involved in interstate commerce--other than airlines, railroads, agriculture, and government--the Act implements the national labor policy of assuring free choice and encouraging collective bargaining as a means of maintaining industrial peace. Through the years, Congress has amended the Act and the Board and courts have developed a body of law drawn from the statute.

and

The agency does not act on its own motion in either function. It processes only those charges of unfair labor practices and petitions for employee elections that are filed with the NLRB in one of its 51 Regional, Subregional, or Resident Offices.

 

[Pan Am 001]

If management is allowed to outsource and expand the foreign national flying...it will almost be impossible to gain those positions back. In about 50 years the NW has managed to get 1 position back. This just doesnt fly.

Actually, I find it rather ironic that the NWA foreign nationals on the interport flights are actually the ones most afraid of losing their jobs under Delta. Talk to them next time you're on a crew bus at NRT if you head that way....Delta has consistently gotten rid of their foreign national FA bases, one after the other. All those inherited from Pan Am - TLV, WAW, and finally, BOM, were all disassembled over the last 15 years. Because Delta has an extensive LOD program, they could easily get enough Japanese, Korean, Mandarin/Cantonese speakers from the U.S. to fly all the interport flights as well (and they really don't need a whole 744 or A333 full of LOD speakers on these interport flights). For example, now that DL is operating one of the NRT-GUM flights (the 767 one), they already have a DL JFK-based crew working the flight with 2 Japanese speakers on board...they could easily roll that out to NRT-HKG, NRT-SIN, NRT-BKK, NRT-MNL, etc.

As a passenger however, I would much prefer they keep the Asia-based FAs of course - from the constant smiles, attention to detail, graciousness, and simple courtesy, not to mention their impeccable grooming, they are actually some of the best 'shining stars' of the airline!!

 

[WorldTraveler]

The reason DL dropped the foreign national crew bases is simply because DL operates no tags or longhaul segments that do not touch the US. DL tried to retain the WAW FAs and allow them to fly to the US but the US gov't refused.
It is not an accurate assessment that the NW foreign crew bases will be dissolved as long as there are flight segments they can work which do not touch US soil.
The sole reason DL staffed the NRT-GUM flight w/ its own US based FAs is because the labor issues have not been resolved and DL and NW still operate under separate certificates. To the best of my knowledge, there are no DL crew members (cockpit or cabin) that are operating on each other's equipment at this point.

 

[jalbalpa]

Richard Anderson has stated that the foreign nationals are here to stay....beings that some get paid as low as $6,000 per year...I have no reason to believe they will be replaced with higher paid U.S. based flight attendants, if anything I would expect that program to be expanded to U.S. bound flights from Asia.

 

[700UW]

Um folks you dont even know what law and what board covers the election, do you?

The Railway Labor Act and the National Mediation Board (NMB) has jurisdiction over airline and railroad union elections, the NLRB has nothing to do with the process.

E D U C A T E yourselves.