Outsourcing at AA

[Overspeed]

Has SWA furloughed AMT's like AA has?

 
Asked and answered

 

[Rogallo]

 
They did. If you want SWA wages then you got to give up many more jobs.

How many more do you think it will take?

 

[1AA]

So we need to give up pay and benefits to save jobs (overhaul). So how well did that work out in recent events? We gave up benefits and work rules to save what? Did we get much of a pay raise? The union gave away profit sharing in exchange for a pay raise. Profit sharing did not figure into union dues but a pay raise does. So I ask what did we as members gain? I know what the union gained. Saving jobs to protect what? That card has been played and the company played us. So now what Mr. Know It All?

 

[swamt]

They did. If you want SWA wages then you got to give up many more jobs.

Sorry for butt'n in fellas but I have to just as a union member.

Now tell us OS why do you say; "If you want SWA wages then you got to give up many more jobs." Who told you this? Of course the company would say this to scare or deter from paying the SWA contract wages. But to hear a union man telling his membership this as a fact is pathetic. So the company has you brain washed that to get SWA wages you will give up jobs. Let's see, the TWU (including yourself) just agreed to job loses, and all kinds of concessions for the worst pay in the industry, which they (TWU) repeated from 2003 again now in 2012. You guys should have jump all over the SWA pay offer, my god, it would be better than what you guys just agreed to, which is job losses and the worst in pay, bennies and even got the 401K match removed, with billions in profits coming soon. Yea, you guys are doing great...

 

[Overspeed]

How many more do you think it will take?

 
My guess, somewhere between SWA and UA headcount ratios, 3 to 1 and 9 to 1 respectively.  That would mean 6 to 1 or 7 to 1 so I would say we need to be at 3,700 to 4,400. That would mean outsourcing almost all overhaul and downsizing or eliminating some small line stations. This is based on AA standalone plan of 625 aircraft which based on the TWU/AA presentation we will need 6,500 by 2017. So rough ballpark of 2,000 to 2,500 more people would have to leave in addition to the 1,500 we are over the 2017 number now. 
 
AA/US merger throws a curveball in there. Merged the new onboard AMTs would be between 6,000 and 7,000. 
 
I went between UA and SWA because SWA does not have as complex fleet as well do and will. UA is more like us but maintains a full engine overhaul, components, and six docks of AO/Mod. They are looking at $42 now I believe so I can think the numbers could be worked for getting our AMTs much closer to SWA wages if we went with the above scenarios.
 
The only way we could keep more or all overhaul in-house is to close the cost gap by delivering a higher quality plane/engine with lower overall labor and material costs than what the MROs provide. 

 

[Overspeed]

Sorry for butt'n in fellas but I have to just as a union member.

Now tell us OS why do you say; "If you want SWA wages then you got to give up many more jobs." Who told you this? Of course the company would say this to scare or deter from paying the SWA contract wages. But to hear a union man telling his membership this as a fact is pathetic. So the company has you brain washed that to get SWA wages you will give up jobs. Let's see, the TWU (including yourself) just agreed to job loses, and all kinds of concessions for the worst pay in the industry, which they (TWU) repeated from 2003 again now in 2012. You guys should have jump all over the SWA pay offer, my god, it would be better than what you guys just agreed to, which is job losses and the worst in pay, bennies and even got the 401K match removed, with billions in profits coming soon. Yea, you guys are doing great...

 
You really need to read and absorb what most are saying on this board. What I am reading is the line of thought is that in-house overhaul labor costs are higher than MROs and the gap will not be closed. I disagree however but that is what I am reading on this blog and the acknowledgement that even if it isn't labor's fault that the bases are higher cost due to mismanagement, it is what it is and the high cost of in-house overhaul is not going to change. The SWA Way of running the maintenance operation does not exist currently at AA and I wish it was but it doesn't. Can any union contract force management to manage well and force them to be accountable for mismanagement? I have not seen one yet.

 

[MetalMover]

 
They did. If you want SWA wages then you got to give up many more jobs.

Now I'm really confused....Where did all the cabin service jobs go? How about line cargo at class 2 and below stations?
I guess those former AFM mechanics who bumped around the system like being away from their families.

 

[Overspeed]

Now I'm really confused....Where did all the cabin service jobs go? How about line cargo at class 2 and below stations?
I guess those former AFM mechanics who bumped around the system like being away from their families.

 
Please expand on your line of thought. I thought we were talking about M&R only? Class II Title I and V stayed in place. Fleet and Title II did take hits at Class II.

 

[MetalMover]

 
Please expand on your line of thought. I thought we were talking about M&R only? Class II Title I and V stayed in place. Fleet and Title II did take hits at Class II.

Did the TWU not lose cabin service? line cargo and smaller stations? freight?
We can't just talk about M&R....many jobs were lost.

 

[WNMECH]

...Yes they do some OH..But did they have ever a TULSA? an AFW? numerous Class I line stations? With hangars performing a lot of work?

Our engine shops strip the engines, send out the cores and then rebuild them when the cores are returned. We have engine shops in DAL and ATL.
We have hangar maintenance at a several stations but most are done at HOU, PHX, MDW, ATL and DAL.
We run B/C check lines in DAL, HOU, MDW and PHX. We also have large line maintenance stations at BWI, MCO and LAS plus smaller line maintenance all over.
And of course our 4 lines of heavy overhaul at DAL.

 

[Bob Owens]

 
They did. If you want SWA wages then you got to give up many more jobs.

Really? Many more than this agreement gives up? Doubtful. Where would those jobs go? Lets see the 777 going to Asia would eat up the whole Foreign Overhaul allotment, so everything else would have to stay in the states, even any line maintenance checks, items and ECOs we have done in Europe and South America. With labor costs on the rise for Domestic MROs and demand already high it would likely be cheaper for AA to keep the work in house than pay premium rates and have to let airplanes run out of time and sit till the MROs can squeeze them in.
 
 
 Would the changes needed to bring us up to WN wages change the fact that we have ETOPS operations and Airplanes that have as many tires and more brakes on one gear as SWA planes have on the whole plane?
 
Would a 777 and 767 become as maintenance free as a 737 because we changed our contract?
 
The sad fact is that years ago we made a lot more than SWA and had a lot more in-house maintenance. SWA didn't change, we did. They didn't give anything up, you used to blast them for allowing a limited number of planes to be done in El Salvador, right next to US, and Jet Blue planes and not one SWA mechanic lost his job but then we allowed AA to ship all their outsourced work overseas if they wanted to and we saw thousands of jobs eliminated, with thousands more to be eliminated.  They always outsourced and their pay rates when adjusted for inflation are about where they always were. twenty years ago it was considered a lousy contract, now we have guys quitting AA and going to SWA. Their contracts saw minor improvements but ours have been gutted. We  earn MUCH MUCH less and outsource much more than we used to yet you still come here and say we could have the SWA contract but we would have to give up even more jobs, when in fact you are well aware of the fact that outsourcing will not provide the savings for AA that SWA sees. SWA has the advantage of having 600 of the same fleet type, that gives them a market advantage when shopping around for someone to do overhaul, that's why despite economies of scale they continue to outsource so much overhaul. SWA does not flip those savings into higher wages for their mechanics as you claim, they roll them into profits. SWA also enjoys a similar lean plan with their Fleet workers, and who represents them? The TWU. And their Flight Attendants, who represents them? The TWU, yet I don't see you blasting them for not having the same ratio of Flight Attendants or Fleet service clerks per airplane as AA and saying they are greedy and should sacrifice to create more jobs. Both those TWU groups earn top pay, once again, they didn't make big gains, they kept up with inflation. I don't see you saying that they should agree slash their wages so they can hire more of those workers . The flip side to that is that AA with their three class service and multiple fleet type can command a revenue premium and serve many types of high revenue  markets. So even if we had a  contract like SWA does, we probably wouldn't lose any more jobs than we are going to lose under this very lousy contract that we have. What's sad is you claim to be pro-union yet you simply mimic whatever the company says and repeat it as fact.
 
You also stated that if someone gets laid off that their career has been destroyed. Why would you say that when we have recall rights? For many years this was a place where you could have a good career but layoffs were part of the deal. Every mechanic who was laid off from AA had a job they could take, in fact AA is hiring off the street. Hundreds would rather go to the street than stay with AA, that's because people like you destroyed their careers by making this a job that can not support a family. Layoffs are temporary, even when the number of jobs go down, but the concessions are not only permanent, they lead to even more concessions.

 

[swamt]

Really? Many more than this agreement gives up? Doubtful. Where would those jobs go? lets see the 777 going to Asia would eat up the whole Foreign Overhaul allotment, so everything else would have to stay in the states, even the line maintenance checks, items and ECOs we have done in Europe and South America.
 
 Would the changes needed to bring us up to WN wages change the fact that we have ETOPS operations and Airplanes that have as many tires and more brakes on one gear as SWA planes have on the whole plane?
 
Would a 777 and 767 become as maintenance free as a 737 because we changed our contract?
 
The sad fact is that years ago we made a lot more than SWA and had a lot more in-house maintenance. SWA didn't change, we did, They always outsourced and their pay rates when adjusted for inflation are about where they always were. We on the other hand earn MUCH MUCH less and outsource much more yet you still come here and say we could have SWA contract but we would have to give up even more jobs, when in fact you are well aware of the fact that outsourcing will not provide the savings for AA that SWA sees. SWA has the advantage of having 600 of the same fleet type, that gives them a market advantage when shopping around for someone to do overhaul, the flip side to that is that AA with their three class service and multiple fleet type can command a revenue premium and serve many types of markets. So even if we had a better contract like SWA does, we probably wouldn't lose any more jobs than we are going to lose under this very lousy contract that we have.

One question Bob.  Would you personally like to have our contract over at AA??

 

[Bob Owens]

One question Bob.  Would you personally like to have our contract over at AA??

Yes. Between the wage and the 9% 401K its a no brainer. My PTO would not even take much of a hit and I could give away time and still earn more. I've often said that if SWA were to put maint in ISP I would apply, if offered I would quit AA despite having nearly 28 years.
 
 
A few weeks ago one of local 562s EB left AA to work for the MTA. He showed me his medical,  the savings in Medical alone offset the slight hit he took by going to bottom of scale with the MTA, after one year he actually gets more vacation than he had after working 15 years at AA and the Holiday Pay puts him comfortably over the top.

 

[700UW]

US MTC managment has thrown a temper tantrum, seems no one is working OT and the planes are not going out on time so they just farmed out a 757 check to ST Mobile Aerospace.
 
The war has begun.

 

[robbedagain]

i thought the 57 is to be done in house?