Outsourcing at AA

[700UW]

They are doing them in-house, but they current planes are not getting out on time, so as in retaliation they farmed out a plane, which they can due under the CBA as long as it doesnt exceed 50% of billable total hours for HMV work.

 

[Bob Owens]

US MTC managment has thrown a temper tantrum, seems no one is working OT and the planes are not going out on time so they just farmed out a 757 check to ST Mobile Aerospace.
 
The war has begun.

From what I hear the same thing is happening (not getting done on time) with the AA 767s and they have outsourced several of them.   I hope you are right and I hope it spreads.

 

[Overspeed]

Yes. Between the wage and the 9% 401K its a no brainer. My PTO would not even take much of a hit and I could give away time and still earn more. I've often said that if SWA were to put maint in ISP I would apply, if offered I would quit AA despite having nearly 28 years.
 
 
A few weeks ago one of local 562s EB left AA to work for the MTA. He showed me his medical,  the savings in Medical alone offset the slight hit he took by going to bottom of scale with the MTA, after one year he actually gets more vacation than he had after working 15 years at AA and the Holiday Pay puts him comfortably over the top.

 
Of course you would. You have 28 years of seniority. Everyone under 15...well they have a great job waiting at TIMCO.

 

[Overspeed]

Really? Many more than this agreement gives up? Doubtful. Where would those jobs go? Lets see the 777 going to Asia would eat up the whole Foreign Overhaul allotment, so everything else would have to stay in the states, even any line maintenance checks, items and ECOs we have done in Europe and South America. With labor costs on the rise for Domestic MROs and demand already high it would likely be cheaper for AA to keep the work in house than pay premium rates and have to let airplanes run out of time and sit till the MROs can squeeze them in.
 
 
 Would the changes needed to bring us up to WN wages change the fact that we have ETOPS operations and Airplanes that have as many tires and more brakes on one gear as SWA planes have on the whole plane?
 
Would a 777 and 767 become as maintenance free as a 737 because we changed our contract?
 
The sad fact is that years ago we made a lot more than SWA and had a lot more in-house maintenance. SWA didn't change, we did. They didn't give anything up, you used to blast them for allowing a limited number of planes to be done in El Salvador, right next to US, and Jet Blue planes and not one SWA mechanic lost his job but then we allowed AA to ship all their outsourced work overseas if they wanted to and we saw thousands of jobs eliminated, with thousands more to be eliminated.  They always outsourced and their pay rates when adjusted for inflation are about where they always were. twenty years ago it was considered a lousy contract, now we have guys quitting AA and going to SWA. Their contracts saw minor improvements but ours have been gutted. We  earn MUCH MUCH less and outsource much more than we used to yet you still come here and say we could have the SWA contract but we would have to give up even more jobs, when in fact you are well aware of the fact that outsourcing will not provide the savings for AA that SWA sees. SWA has the advantage of having 600 of the same fleet type, that gives them a market advantage when shopping around for someone to do overhaul, that's why despite economies of scale they continue to outsource so much overhaul. SWA does not flip those savings into higher wages for their mechanics as you claim, they roll them into profits. SWA also enjoys a similar lean plan with their Fleet workers, and who represents them? The TWU. And their Flight Attendants, who represents them? The TWU, yet I don't see you blasting them for not having the same ratio of Flight Attendants or Fleet service clerks per airplane as AA and saying they are greedy and should sacrifice to create more jobs. Both those TWU groups earn top pay, once again, they didn't make big gains, they kept up with inflation. I don't see you saying that they should agree slash their wages so they can hire more of those workers . The flip side to that is that AA with their three class service and multiple fleet type can command a revenue premium and serve many types of high revenue  markets. So even if we had a  contract like SWA does, we probably wouldn't lose any more jobs than we are going to lose under this very lousy contract that we have. What's sad is you claim to be pro-union yet you simply mimic whatever the company says and repeat it as fact.
 
You also stated that if someone gets laid off that their career has been destroyed. Why would you say that when we have recall rights? For many years this was a place where you could have a good career but layoffs were part of the deal. Every mechanic who was laid off from AA had a job they could take, in fact AA is hiring off the street. Hundreds would rather go to the street than stay with AA, that's because people like you destroyed their careers by making this a job that can not support a family. Layoffs are temporary, even when the number of jobs go down, but the concessions are not only permanent, they lead to even more concessions.

 
How many 777 lines are running in HKG? Not even one full nose to tail line? That hardly adds up to the four lines of B737 done in El Salvador under the SWA CBA. Still making stuff up without facts. 
 
AAR has added capacity in MSP and Lake Charles on top of their MIA and IND bases. There is plenty of capacity.
 
737s do have fewer brakes and tires than a 777 however brakes and tires wear based on cycles not hours. 777 utilization is much lower than SWA flying 1.5 to 2.0 hour trips at three to four landings a day. SWA changes a lot more brakes and tires than AA on a plane by plane comparison. 
 
Yes SWA has not laid off any AMTs. I know that but you want to be like SWA on wages which you have to take in the total cost of contract. That is work rules and scope language. AA would have to emulate some level of SWA outsourcing which would mean all of engines and all but four lines of airframe overhaul.
 
Interesting that you start this thread bashing outsourcing as low quality however you hold up SWA, the king of outsourcing maintenance as the contract you want to emulate? Which is it Bob? Do you advocate or stand against outsourcing. 

 

[Bob Owens]

 
How many 777 lines are running in HKG? Not even one full nose to tail line? That hardly adds up to the four lines of B737 done in El Salvador under the SWA CBA. Still making stuff up without facts. 
 
AAR has added capacity in MSP and Lake Charles on top of their MIA and IND bases. There is plenty of capacity.
 
737s do have fewer brakes and tires than a 777 however brakes and tires wear based on cycles not hours. 777 utilization is much lower than SWA flying 1.5 to 2.0 hour trips at three to four landings a day. SWA changes a lot more brakes and tires than AA on a plane by plane comparison. 
 
Yes SWA has not laid off any AMTs. I know that but you want to be like SWA on wages which you have to take in the total cost of contract. That is work rules and scope language. AA would have to emulate some level of SWA outsourcing which would mean all of engines and all but four lines of airframe overhaul.
 
Interesting that you start this thread bashing outsourcing as low quality however you hold up SWA, the king of outsourcing maintenance as the contract you want to emulate? Which is it Bob? Do you advocate or stand against outsourcing. 

I thought you said UPS was the king of outsourcing? What I said was I'd rather be working under the SWA agreement than ours, which doesn't have a limit on how many lines of maint can be outsourced, or where it could be outsourced to. AA could outsource 35% of the maintenance spend overseas if they chose to, that could be well over 50% of the man hours if they send it to places like El Salvador.  If RR or AA backs out of TAESL that 35% goes to at least 45% which could be 70% of man hours if they sent it overseas. As you cited anything that costs the company money on our end allows them to outsource even more jobs, so what happens when the mid term wage adjustment kicks in? That allows them to outsource even more. So wages will be going up as OH work decreases (due to new planes) shrinking OH even more.  In fact with each pay raise the amount of money they can spend on outsourcing goes up, with each new aircraft the amount of money spent on OH goes down but so does the amount of jobs. Percentagewise more and more will shift to line maintenence. Are you still denying that between increased wages and the new aircraft its conceivable that AA could if it chose to outsource all of overhaul, and send it all overseas? All they have to do is increase the amount of work they do in Class I stations to stretch out the heavy checks or rework the outsourced OH when they come back like their competitors. You are aware that they are getting a new hangar in Boston right? So they have Hangars in Boston, JFK, LGA MIA, ORD, STL, DFW, LAX and SFO, all underutilized (with even more coming with USAIR such a PHL and DCA).
 
I would rather have a contract that has defined parameters than the mirage you endorsed.
 
As far as cycles and tires and brakes I don't think that a 777 gets as many landings out of their tires and brakes as a 737. Its also more work to change a 777 tire than a 737 tire.

 

[Overspeed]

I thought you said UPS was the king of outsourcing? What I said was I'd rather be working under the SWA agreement than ours, which doesn't have a limit on how many lines of maint can be outsourced, or where it could be outsourced to. AA could outsource 35% of the maintenance spend overseas if they chose to, that could be well over 50% of the man hours if they send it to places like El Salvador.  If RR or AA backs out of TAESL that 35% goes to at least 45% which could be 70% of man hours if they sent it overseas. As you cited anything that costs the company money on our end allows them to outsource even more jobs, so what happens when the mid term wage adjustment kicks in? That allows them to outsource even more. So wages will be going up as OH work decreases (due to new planes) shrinking OH even more.  In fact with each pay raise the amount of money they can spend on outsourcing goes up, with each new aircraft the amount of money spent on OH goes down but so does the amount of jobs. Percentagewise more and more will shift to line maintenence. Are you still denying that between increased wages and the new aircraft its conceivable that AA could if it chose to outsource all of overhaul, and send it all overseas? All they have to do is increase the amount of work they do in Class I stations to stretch out the heavy checks or rework the outsourced OH when they come back like their competitors. You are aware that they are getting a new hangar in Boston right? So they have Hangars in Boston, JFK, LGA MIA, ORD, STL, DFW, LAX and SFO, all underutilized (with even more coming with USAIR such a PHL and DCA).
 
I would rather have a contract that has defined parameters than the mirage you endorsed.
 
As far as cycles and tires and brakes I don't think that a 777 gets as many landings out of their tires and brakes as a 737. Its also more work to change a 777 tire than a 737 tire.

 
UPS but they are a freight carrier.
 
UA outsources approx. 50% of their maintenance spend before the merger and they had all their engines in-house and three lines of overhaul. So 35% would mean we would have to still keep all of our engines in-house with at least 10 lines of AO in-house under the percentage. I'm not denying anything, AA can't outsource all of overhaul under the language. Could some of it be done in the line environment? Yes on the AO LC side. Not on the HC and Engines side.
 
You and the new officers oversee the scope language so I know you will be enforcing it strictly for the sakes of our overhaul brothers and sisters.

 

[swamt]

 
Of course you would. You have 28 years of seniority. Everyone under 15...well they have a great job waiting at TIMCO.

I call BS.  We have several X-AA mechanics that came here with less than 15 years.   Who cares if they had 28 years or 2.8 years.  None of them are looking back now.  Some are even asking why they didn't do it many years ago.  And yes we even have some with 24-28 years with AA and left on their own to start over.  That really does say a lot...

 

[swamt]

 
UPS but they are a freight carrier.
 
UA outsources approx. 50% of their maintenance spend before the merger and they had all their engines in-house and three lines of overhaul. So 35% would mean we would have to still keep all of our engines in-house with at least 10 lines of AO in-house under the percentage. I'm not denying anything, AA can't outsource all of overhaul under the language. Could some of it be done in the line environment? Yes on the AO LC side. Not on the HC and Engines side.
 
You and the new officers oversee the scope language so I know you will be enforcing it strictly for the sakes of our overhaul brothers and sisters.

He never said AA could outsource all of the maint.  He did say, what they are allowed to outsource, all of it could very easily go overseas or out of this country, because your contract is wide open to this fact with "ZERO, NADA, ZILCH," of limitations or restrictions from preventing it.  And yes it can be done in the line environment, matter fact they can send 15% of line maint. on top of the 35% of spend outsourcing.  Which now can very easily equate to well over 65-75% of total maint. by the time you get done using that ridiculous formula used by the company, and your beloved TWU agreed to it, as always...

 

[Overspeed]

I call BS.  We have several X-AA mechanics that came here with less than 15 years.   Who cares if they had 28 years or 2.8 years.  None of them are looking back now.  Some are even asking why they didn't do it many years ago.  And yes we even have some with 24-28 years with AA and left on their own to start over.  That really does say a lot...

 
Will there be jobs for everyone who get cut from AA at SWA? How many of the 2,500 who lost jobs at AA during the BK cuts have jobs now at SWA?

 

[Rogallo]

Be realistic!  They're all going to Timco!

 

[Overspeed]

Be realistic!  They're all going to Timco!

 
Exactly!

 

[swamt]

 
Will there be jobs for everyone who get cut from AA at SWA? How many of the 2,500 who lost jobs at AA during the BK cuts have jobs now at SWA?

Of course not.  You have to be realistic. And I never said SWA will hire all the mechanics furloughed from AA or that quits.  But I will tell you X-AA mechanics made up 85-95% of the new hire classes for mechanics...  Most all the AA'ers that came on board came from DFW, DHW, AFW and Tulsa. 
But do keep your eyes on our hiring board a little longer.  There should be some more hiring spurts once the W/A expiration gets closer and is gone, our overnights will more than double at LF.   BTW;  is your airline hiring, or have they been hiring for the last couple of years as SWA has been?  Didn't think so...

 

[Overspeed]

Of course not.  You have to be realistic. And I never said SWA will hire all the mechanics furloughed from AA or that quits.  But I will tell you X-AA mechanics made up 85-95% of the new hire classes for mechanics...  Most all the AA'ers that came on board came from DFW, DHW, AFW and Tulsa. 
But do keep your eyes on our hiring board a little longer.  There should be some more hiring spurts once the W/A expiration gets closer and is gone, our overnights will more than double at LF.   BTW;  is your airline hiring, or have they been hiring for the last couple of years as SWA has been?  Didn't think so...

 
Yes we have been hiring AMTs

 

[swamt]

Yes we have been hiring AMTs

How many in the last 2-3 years? If you have been hiring mechs then why are there still mechanics getting furloughed from Tulsa now thru 2017?? C'mon man...

 

[mike 7867]

How many in the last 2-3 years? If you have been hiring mechs then why are there still mechanics getting furloughed from Tulsa now thru 2017?? C'mon man...

i think we have hired about 300 amts in the last year mostly in ord, jfk, lga, mia.  the mech getting furlough in tulsa is because of lost work there.  they have the option of bumping the system, if they choose not to feel the openings then they will hire off the street.