Swa To Get Mediation In F/a Negotiations
- Thread starter s80dude
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I have one question for you KC Flyer. Are you or have you ever been a flight attendant? If you can live on $9,000 a month, then you should tell America on how it's done!! Airlines are based on seniority. If you leave one airline and go to a new one you start at the bottom. I would not leave AA to go to another carrier, unless I had no choice. Giving up 13 years on seniority is like giving up your first born!! I'm not trying to pick at you, but EVERY flight attendant in under paid! 
KCFlyer
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wrx - allow me to clear up a few things - Here is how you live on $9,000 a month - you forgoe the 6 bedroom 5 bath house on the golf course and opt for the 4 bedroom 3 bath house a few blocks away. You opt for the Lexus instead of the Mercedes. You only hire one housekeeper as opposed to two. I would imagine the I could live rather nicely on $9,000 a month - even in Manhattan.wrx said:I have one question for you KC Flyer. Are you or have you ever been a flight attendant? If you can live on $9,000 a month, then you should tell America on how it's done!! Airlines are based on seniority. If you leave one airline and go to a new one you start at the bottom. I would not leave AA to go to another carrier, unless I had no choice. Giving up 13 years on seniority is like giving up your first born!! I'm not trying to pick at you, but EVERY flight attendant in under paid!
Please point to where this magic $9,000 a year statement came from as being "fair" pay for a flight attendant? I certainly didn't make it. You know, this topic is about Southwest airlines attendants who don't have their employees based in NYC. A Southwest flight attendant posted that a new hire pretty much makes $16K a year (before taxes). The only thing I take to task is this flippant use of the term "poverty level". It doesn't mean that this is a "fair wage", just that your starting wage is far more than "poverty level", whether you want to admit it or not. And...FWIW, those poverty numbers are for the 48 contiguous states - no "allowances" for those living in NYC or San Francisco. I guess our poverty folks are living large here in America's heartland, but believe it or not, there really ARE people who qualify as "poverty level" in those two cities as well. But I'll tell you what...e-mail me off line and we can arrange for you to stop off in KC on a day off. I'll meet you at the airport and then I'll take you where you can meet some folks who really are living on less than $9,000 a year. You can compare lifestyle notes. You can compare "apartments". You can compare clothing. You can compare meals. And then you can decide if your life is anywhere close to what there life is. Fly is welcome to join you. I have an idea that you'll leave feeling like you live like Donald Trump after meeting some of these folks.
Second - that dang old seniority system is precisely the reason that I do not work in a unionized organization. If I felt I was being screwed, I left for a better opportunity. No starting over at the bottom. And the odd thing was, if 30 years in the workplace, I haven't had an employer who was ever really screwing me over, so I really had no need for any kind of "protection".
Finally...why don't you and fly state what an FA should be paid. I never have, and I never will. So why don't you post a "fair" pay scale since you are eager to see what everyone else considers fair. From all I have read, you and fly would put the airline out of business in a hurry since you have both posted that it's just too tough to live on $108,000 per year ($9,000 a month). I will go so far as to admit that THAT may be a little too steep for starting pay.
That's funny! If you could live on $9,000 a month in Manhattan...wait that's impossible to do! Ask any flight attendant that makes base pay as a new hire or even someone with 5 years of seniority and they will tell you it can't be done on $9,000 a year. You couldn't afford to live in the "hood" on $9,000 a month. Maybe you can in the middle of Kansas or Nebraska, but not Manhattan.KCFlyer said:
I can't even afford a 6 bedroom 5 bath house on 13 year pay. Actually Mercedes Benz are now cheaper then a Lexus. Why hire a housekeeper, I do a better job anyway.
Flight Attendants should start out at least with $35,000 per year, if not more. We're safety professionals just like Firefighters and Police Officers. We actually now have one of the most dangerous jobs in the nation!!
Take care and let me know if you move to Manhattan on $9,000 a month.
KCFlyer
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You're right...I'm just a rube from the midwest. But I'm internet active - here's an apartment for you:
MANHATTAN
Area: Central Park West Size: 2 Bedroom Rent: $1900
Description: Beautiful newly decorated 2 bedroom apartment on 106th st. NO FEE! No Rental increase.
To Contact: Call Lou at 212-662-4915
That would even leave you with $7,100 for groceries.
Couple of other points - Lexus might cost more than Mercedes, but they are more reliable and Mercedes are notoriously expensive to maintain, so in the long run, you'll save more by opting for the Lexus.
Or, for $9,000 a month, you could just move to America's heartland and buy that 5,000 square foot 3 car garage home and still have enough left over to charter a jet to take you to your base in NYC every week. It's just a matter of how much you're willing to sacrifice.
No thanks needed, glad to help out where I can.
MANHATTAN
Area: Central Park West Size: 2 Bedroom Rent: $1900
Description: Beautiful newly decorated 2 bedroom apartment on 106th st. NO FEE! No Rental increase.
To Contact: Call Lou at 212-662-4915
That would even leave you with $7,100 for groceries.
Couple of other points - Lexus might cost more than Mercedes, but they are more reliable and Mercedes are notoriously expensive to maintain, so in the long run, you'll save more by opting for the Lexus.
Or, for $9,000 a month, you could just move to America's heartland and buy that 5,000 square foot 3 car garage home and still have enough left over to charter a jet to take you to your base in NYC every week. It's just a matter of how much you're willing to sacrifice.
No thanks needed, glad to help out where I can.
Okay kids, I'm glad we've opened the "Better Living in Manhattan " forum. 
FLY, just to clear something up, it's 93.5 Trips for Pay, not hours. The TFP formula was developed years ago as a 45 minute flight with a 15 minute turn. Even we're not quite doing it in 15 minutes anymore, and this pay formula isn't quite matching the work.
However, thanks for the support, we're glad to have a mediator to get Mr. Parker back to the table.
No more avoiding the tough talk, Jim. <_<
FLY, just to clear something up, it's 93.5 Trips for Pay, not hours. The TFP formula was developed years ago as a 45 minute flight with a 15 minute turn. Even we're not quite doing it in 15 minutes anymore, and this pay formula isn't quite matching the work.
However, thanks for the support, we're glad to have a mediator to get Mr. Parker back to the table. No more avoiding the tough talk, Jim. <_<
$16000/yr is not poverty level? What country are you in?KCFlyer said:Cart Pusher - I could live pretty well on $9,000 a month.
If my math is right, that says that a new hire SWA FA who is not used while on call makes about $16,459.80 before taxes. THAT my friend is significantly MORE than poverty level. FWIW, there was a period in my life where I lived for less than that amount before taxes (in Dallas)...it can be done, albeit, it isn't the most luxurious lifestyle, but I most certainly did not turn to food stamps to help support me, so it CAN be done. I won't "say what an FA should be paid" - it's really none of my business. But in dealing with people who really DO qualify as "poverty" level on a daily basis, I just have to vent when I see that term bandied about.
KCFlyer
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Bob - look earlier in this thread. I posted what the government considers poverty level. Like it or not THAT is the guideline. And $16K a year is about twice what poverty level is for a single person household. And yes...I've lived on $16K (less even) for a few years - not in mama and dad's house either.
Can I ask what are you smoking, (just kidding)? That 2 bedroom, is about the size of an aircraft LAV! Don't forget your utilities (big $$$ in NYC), transportation (if you have a car, it will cost you $500-$1,000 per month for a parking), Parking is not included with your rent. Have you ever lived in NYC? I'm based at JFK and I can tell you that you will never make it on $9,000 a month in NYC! I'm sure every other crewmember on this board will agree with me. You live in the Midwest. Things are super cheap in the middle of nowhere. I can live on $9,000 a month in Newton, Kansas.KCFlyer said:
Anyway, take it easy and if you move to NYC on $9,000 a month I suggest you write a column in the NY Post on "How to live in Manhattan on $9,000 a month."
KCFlyer
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Perhaps you should move to Newton Kansas then.
You say "poverty level", I cite the real poverty level statistics. You say it's "impossible" to live in Manhattan for 9,000 a month, I cite a two bedroom apartment for $1,900. You say "it's too small". Might I suggest that if its so hard to live in the city that YOU chose to live in, perhaps either a career change would be in order, or a move to a "less desirable" area of the country might be in order. After all, Southwest doesn't have a crew base in Kansas City, but I know of a couple of SWA pilots who live in the Kansas suburbs, what's stopping an AA FA from doing likewise?
You say "poverty level", I cite the real poverty level statistics. You say it's "impossible" to live in Manhattan for 9,000 a month, I cite a two bedroom apartment for $1,900. You say "it's too small". Might I suggest that if its so hard to live in the city that YOU chose to live in, perhaps either a career change would be in order, or a move to a "less desirable" area of the country might be in order. After all, Southwest doesn't have a crew base in Kansas City, but I know of a couple of SWA pilots who live in the Kansas suburbs, what's stopping an AA FA from doing likewise?
First off I never said I lived in NYC! I'm based in NYC. Majority of flight attendants and pilots don't live in the city in which they're based. Have you ever been to NYC? It's obvious you haven't. If you have then you would know that an apartment for $2,000 is the size of your bathroom in your house. I'm willing to bet my entire life savings that you can't survive in NYC for $9,000 a month. When you get to NYC and try to live on $9,000 per month you will need a second job. If you go to Times Square you will see this guy who sells socks on the street corner. You can't miss him, he wears a Superman Costume. I guarantee he will hire you!! If there is any crewmembers on this board who thinks that you can survive in NYC on $9,000 a month, let's here from you.KCFlyer said:
You say I should change careers. Hmmm, let me think about that. Working 11 days per month and getting paid to see the world. I have the greatest view from my office. NAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH, can't change careers.
You still have avoided this question. Do you even work for an airline? No, I will pass on living in Newton, Kansas. No beach!
Now let's get back onto the real topic here. "SWA to get mediation in f/a negotiations"
Take care.
KCFlyer
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wrx - not a problem at all. The reason this whole side discussion got started was because I happened to mention that I resent the use of the term "poverty level" when the writer apparently has no clue of what poverty level is. Then you start in with a moot discussion - that $9,000 month would not allow one to live in NYC where they are based - moot because you mention that rarely does a flight crew live in the city where they are based. But I'm glad you mention it - the question was asked "How is an OAK based flight attendant supposed to survive on starting wages". The answer is simple - live in KC and commute. After all, very few crew members live in the city where they are based (especially if it proves too expensive to do so)...right?
All that aside, I do hope that this mediation brings about an agreement that both sides can live with. That's very important, since the employee/management relationship is sort of like a husband/wife relationship - they can both exist, even if one hates the other, but it works out a whole lot better when both parties have a mutual respect and dare I say, affection, for one another.
All that aside, I do hope that this mediation brings about an agreement that both sides can live with. That's very important, since the employee/management relationship is sort of like a husband/wife relationship - they can both exist, even if one hates the other, but it works out a whole lot better when both parties have a mutual respect and dare I say, affection, for one another.
