United pilots

[AWA320]

No sir, they are not still junior F/Os. Due to our attrition east F/Os have moved up rapidly, unlike their west counterparts who have stagnated. Many that were junior F/Os in 2005 are now captains, or line holder widebody F/Os. That is the problem with how the list was put together. Nic gave the east no credit for our attrition and put too much weight on the healthier airline concept. The guys slotted just in front of me had never been a captain or widebody F/O at AWA. They are still narrowbody F/Os on the west. If the Nic award were implemented tomorrow they would have several hundred 737 and A320 captains, A330 and 767 F/Os junior to them.

You guys need to read the Nic award, and take the seniority lists from 2005 and 2008 to really see the effect. Also read the CAL neutral opinion. He got it right, Nic just didn't listen.

The east F/Os have worked and waited for years to recover their positions. They are doing it now, in the east bases, and not on the west pilots backs as they claim.

John Prater, Doug Parker, Scott Kirby and many more told the west pilots that the Nic award was flawed and would not fly. They chose not to listen. That, and the east MECs actions prior to arbitration is why we are where we are today.

UA guys, your Mec chairman is right. This place is a toxic stew. Unless a merger with us is necessary to stay in business, you are much better off not getting involved.

Good luck to us all.

You simply just don't get it and refuse to try. In your world the very bottom guy at AAA had 18yrs with the company and you CLAIM that he had 18yrs of seniority yet he was THE VERY BOTTOM GUY! It is your position that the award should take him and place him where the 18yr AWA guys are which mind you are SENIOR CAPTAINS unlike you 18 yr bottom of the list f/o!! Your formula is commonly known as "DATE OF HIRE" which is to everyone else in the world, except easties of course a staple job!! You seek to make us what you were simply based on the fact that you were pulled from the jaws of absolute defeat by Doug Parker at the west pilots expense with this buyout.

The award was more than fair to you yet you whine an cry like the spoiled children that you have become. We lost plenty in this abortion of a bailout and you seek to take even more. Beat us down until we all either furloughed or just plain sick of the fight. Well that ain't gonna happen so get your mind off it. You see now we are the ones with nothing left to lose so walking out on parker and leave planes and passengers stuck is now not much of an issue to us! The hatred we harbor towards you now is forever and their will be no fixing it. Toxic is the word I think you used and it is fitting.

Doug and company will put this deal together because it's good for them and they will make loads of money while the employees wage war against one another and in the end the employees will pay the price. Selfishness and the expectation of entitlement is how this happend and the pilots of UAL remember all too well how you treated them before. You beg for the new law in hopes that again you get to try for DOH but good luck as it's no where to be found and UAL will never ever allow DOH to be used. Selfishness, learn the word and understand just how it ended your career...

 

[Pi brat]

You simply just don't get it and refuse to try. In your world the very bottom guy at AAA had 18yrs with the company and you CLAIM that he had 18yrs of seniority yet he was THE VERY BOTTOM GUY! It is your position that the award should take him and place him where the 18yr AWA guys are which mind you are SENIOR CAPTAINS unlike you 18 yr bottom of the list f/o!! Your formula is commonly known as "DATE OF HIRE" which is to everyone else in the world, except easties of course a staple job!! You seek to make us what you were simply based on the fact that you were pulled from the jaws of absolute defeat by Doug Parker at the west pilots expense with this buyout.

The award was more than fair to you yet you whine an cry like the spoiled children that you have become. We lost plenty in this abortion of a bailout and you seek to take even more. Beat us down until we all either furloughed or just plain sick of the fight. Well that ain't gonna happen so get your mind off it. You see now we are the ones with nothing left to lose so walking out on parker and leave planes and passengers stuck is now not much of an issue to us! The hatred we harbor towards you now is forever and their will be no fixing it. Toxic is the word I think you used and it is fitting.

Doug and company will put this deal together because it's good for them and they will make loads of money while the employees wage war against one another and in the end the employees will pay the price. Selfishness and the expectation of entitlement is how this happend and the pilots of UAL remember all too well how you treated them before. You beg for the new law in hopes that again you get to try for DOH but good luck as it's no where to be found and UAL will never ever allow DOH to be used. Selfishness, learn the word and understand just how it ended your career...

I get such a kick out of you.

This is a UA board, I was responding to a UA post. This discussion should be on the US board.

Anyway, do your read what is written before you reply? Where did I say it should have been DOH? DOH wasn't even east ALPA's position, it was LOS. This shows that your little rant has nothing to do with this thread.

Did you listen to Parker's 1st quarter webcast? You should. I'm parapharsing, but he said that anyone who doubts that AWA needed the merger should look at Frontier. The were in better shape than AWA and look where they ended up.

Why do speak of the speck in my eye when you have a log in yours?

 

[AWA320]

I get such a kick out of you.

This is a UA board, I was responding to a UA post. This discussion should be on the US board.

Anyway, do your read what is written before you reply? Where did I say it should have been DOH? DOH wasn't even east ALPA's position, it was LOS. This shows that your little rant has nothing to do with this thread.

Did you listen to Parker's 1st quarter webcast? You should. I'm parapharsing, but he said that anyone who doubts that AWA needed the merger should look at Frontier. The were in better shape than AWA and look where they ended up.

Why do speak of the speck in my eye when you have a log in yours?

DOH wasn't the east pilots position?? Well my friend like I said before, I was there every step of the way while you were flying your trips and going home. I got first hand info while you were being fed filtered jaded info!!! The east never EVER moved off of DOH even when asked by the the panel to take a break and come back!!! LOS is DOH said another way and no amount of lipstick you use would dress up that swine!!!

You chose your path and it came out like it did yet you refuse to be men of honor. No need to ever wonder why we despise you...

 

[Pi brat]

DOH wasn't the east pilots position?? Well my friend like I said before, I was there every step of the way while you were flying your trips and going home. I got first hand info while you were being fed filtered jaded info!!! The east never EVER moved off of DOH even when asked by the the panel to take a break and come back!!! LOS is DOH said another way and no amount of lipstick you use would dress up that swine!!!

You chose your path and it came out like it did yet you refuse to be men of honor. No need to ever wonder why we despise you...

No, LOS is not DOH. For guys that were never furloughed it is, but for our 1999-2000 hires is makes a big difference. Wasn't that a big point in the PHX USAPA love fest? I remember a rabid west F/O screaming about someone with less LOS being senior to here under USAPA's plan.

Just trying to keep you honest. Little details matter in this flying business.

Your leadership dropped the ball after May 2007. You could have had most of the Nic and kept ALPA.

If you really knew me I doubt you would despise me, but I don't really care one way or another.

 

[AWA320]

No, LOS is not DOH. For guys that were never furloughed it is, but for our 1999-2000 hires is makes a big difference. Wasn't that a big point in the PHX USAPA love fest? I remember a rabid west F/O screaming about someone with less LOS being senior to here under USAPA's plan.

Just trying to keep you honest. Little details matter in this flying business.

Your leadership dropped the ball after May 2007. You could have had most of the Nic and kept ALPA.

If you really knew me I doubt you would despise me, but I don't really care one way or another.

Oh I do know you!!! And we dropped nothing. The east had every opportunity and I do mean every when I say that to come to an agreement PRIOR to even going to arb and your MEC refused! We go and it ends like it did. No different than rolling dice, you get what you get...

 

[AAA73Pilot]

Oh I do know you!!! And we dropped nothing. The east had every opportunity and I do mean every when I say that to come to an agreement PRIOR to even going to arb and your MEC refused! We go and it ends like it did. No different than rolling dice, you get what you get...

Now you're posting on a UAL board. You're still a funny guy.

 

[cactusflyer]

hulagirl
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Posted on: Aug 29 2005, 10:21 PM
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"I am an AWA flight attendant. And I respect seniority. Mine. AND YOURS. We are not all supporting "proportional integration" as proposed by some of our members. Do I like it that my seniority is going to take a nose-dive? No! But I am not entitled to seniority that I have not earned. Please dont think we are all supporting this motion."

Hula is trying to stick up for what is right, I commend her or him for it.

Just an FYI, I'm sure in that post she was referring to FA seniority and our AFA bylaws that specifically call for DOH integration in the event of a merger. In fact, despite a lot of continued rhetoric that implies otherwise the west flight attendants have accepted the DOH integration and have moved on....it is what it is and that is how our C&B reads. Now, we'd just all like a pay raise instead of stupid new uniforms.

To the UAL pilots, I'm very certain that you all are capable, intelligent men and women that can see the forest for the trees. No bias here just cause dad is retired UAL. Anywho, don't believe what the east is posting on here in regards to the west pilots wanting all your widebody flying. In the end all the west wanted was for everyone to abide by the decision that is, was and always will be binding. Anyone that was on UAL property back when all the crap was going on in '98 with a proposed UA/US merger will remember the things that were said at THAT time.

Not that UAL needs the west guys to ensure WHO will represent the pilots IF (and that is still a big IF) there is a merger, but I think you
will find the west guys/gals to be a reliable, loyal group that you would not have any problems calling your union brothers and sisters.

Flame away, cuz I'm sure the east guys will come a bashing after this post.

 

[nostradamus]

awa pilot web site contained the facts below. United is failing, they do not have orders for new airplanes. They will reduce their capacity by 15 percent. awa had wide body flying. united pilots, you will soon be saved by america west pilots. The capacity reduction of 15 percent will cause 1200 furloughs that will go below america west pilots.

"Think About The Capacity Perspective
LCC is beholden to a minimum fleet size of 322 mainline aircraft, about 20 fewer
than are currently in operation. LCC can of course reduce capacity further through
diminished utilization, but without the benefit of generating capital savings. But
United appears to have far greater flexibility (though not dependent on
consolidation). While United is beholden to a minimum number of mainline block
hours, it is predicated on an annual ex-item EBIT of 8.1%. For every 1% that
United's EBIT falls short during a calendar year (as opposed to rolling 12-month
basis), United can reduce the block hour floor by 1%. Importantly, there is no
contractually-mandated increase to the minimum, should fuel suddenly collapse and
United's margins surge. The floor can only move down, in other words. Currently,
we estimate United could reduce its mainline capacity by as much as 15% under its
existing pilot contract."


767jetz, you were a great supporter for america west pilots, please comment, have not heard from you lately since you found out america west pilots might merge with you.

 

[Junebug172]

You need to read the Nic award. There are no fences. No restrictions.

Because the east merger committee refused to negotiate anything but DOH.

They went for it all and lost.

They cried and went USAPA.

See you guys back at ALPA!!!

 

[UAL_TECH]

Latest update from ALPA

 

[WhatBag?]

You can stammer and fume all you want but it just won't make it so.

In the meantime chill out and enjoy what you have.

Cheers,
Z B)

Stammer and fume, kind of like the west is with their silly lil red cactus ID backgrounds and name calling of USAPA? And chest beating "they are not MY union" BS? Listen, 90% of you pilots are egotistical self serving boobs. You care nothing but about yourselves. The 2 year pilot thinks he should be in the left seat. The furloughee thinks he should as well. Whether 24 or 54, you guys would KILL to do one another in to get what you want. I find all this ganging up of USAPA as childish and about what was expected. The majority of pilots I have encountered from US to UAL to DAL have done nothing but biiatched about ALPA. One group finally says ENOUGH and now they are cry babies and cowards? If any one of you outspoken loud mouths were on the other side, you would do the same and I am sick of the holier than thou attitudes around the world of the pilots. US East only did what many of you have WANTED to do but never had the BALLS!

If UAUA buys US and APLA (which would happen) is your union, than the east guys will have to get over it and deal with it!

In the meantime, USAPA is the union VOTED IN and CERTIFIED! DEAL WITH IT AND GET OVER IT, WESTIES!!.

 

[AWA320]

Stammer and fume, kind of like the west is with their silly lil red cactus ID backgrounds and name calling of USAPA? And chest beating "they are not MY union" BS? Listen, 90% of you pilots are egotistical self serving boobs. You care nothing but about yourselves. The 2 year pilot thinks he should be in the left seat. The furloughee thinks he should as well. Whether 24 or 54, you guys would KILL to do one another in to get what you want. I find all this ganging up of USAPA as childish and about what was expected. The majority of pilots I have encountered from US to UAL to DAL have done nothing but biiatched about ALPA. One group finally says ENOUGH and now they are cry babies and cowards? If any one of you outspoken loud mouths were on the other side, you would do the same and I am sick of the holier than thou attitudes around the world of the pilots. US East only did what many of you have WANTED to do but never had the BALLS!

If UAUA buys US and APLA (which would happen) is your union, than the east guys will have to get over it and deal with it!

In the meantime, USAPA is the union VOTED IN and CERTIFIED! DEAL WITH IT AND GET OVER IT, WESTIES!!.

You are out of touch with reality like most of the east pilot group. None of our two you pilots which we don't have BTW due to the bail out of usair, want to be captains now!! They want INTEGRITY, HONOR and RESPONSIBILITY from the east pilot group, something they don't have. Their are liers and theives as they have shown the industry! They refuse to step up like MEN and take responsibility for their action. No they woulld rather get tid of the union and hope Doug will take the responilbility for the mega million dollar law suit that WILL follow any attempt to even think about touching that award. ALPA protected the S@@Bs on the east property and now that protection is gone. There will be no peace until there is honor and there will be no honor until they accept responsibility for their dumb actions!

I have no respect for the east pilots NONE which why they can never occupy a cockpit that I am working EVER!!! We have no union here now only hatred for the east. They brought this on themselves and I applaud every ALPA pilot that refuses to allow S@@Bs on their aircraft! The east will honor their agreement or there will never be peace PERIOD...

 

[Pi brat]

Oh I do know you!!! And we dropped nothing. The east had every opportunity and I do mean every when I say that to come to an agreement PRIOR to even going to arb and your MEC refused! We go and it ends like it did. No different than rolling dice, you get what you get...

I just felt the earth get cooler.......I agree with you on one thing, the east MEC did screw up prior to the arbitration. I think your MEC screwed up after the arbitration by not being willing to give up a thing. I think a joint solution would have served us better, but in the end that wasn't possible. We will see who comes out in the end, but it is my prediction that we have all lost.

One thing you guys fail to grasp is that you are US Airways pilots. Welcome to the great disgruntled masses. Everyone from the outside looking in sees us all as unhappy people and will not want to touch any of us. If this thing goes down the tubes and you are looking for a flying job, do you think they will look at your resume and say"Oh, he was a west guy, so his ranting doesn't count, he had a right to be unhappy", or do you think they will say "Why risk it with a pissed off US pilot, I'll take this fresh 20 something RJ captain that is glad to be here"?

 

[AWA320]

I just felt the earth get cooler.......I agree with you on one thing, the east MEC did screw up prior to the arbitration. I think your MEC screwed up after the arbitration by not being willing to give up a thing. I think a joint solution would have served us better, but in the end that wasn't possible. We will see who comes out in the end, but it is my prediction that we have all lost.

One thing you guys fail to grasp is that you are US Airways pilots. Welcome to the great disgruntled masses. Everyone from the outside looking in sees us all as unhappy people and will not want to touch any of us. If this thing goes down the tubes and you are looking for a flying job, do you think they will look at your resume and say"Oh, he was a west guy, so his ranting doesn't count, he had a right to be unhappy", or do you think they will say "Why risk it with a pissed off US pilot, I'll take this fresh 20 something RJ captain that is glad to be here"?

A joint solution was offered to your mec on more than one occasian prior to even going to mediation. The east mec wasted days and money going to mediation PRIOR to arbitration. We never ever wanted to go to arbitration but what choice did they leave us?? It was DOH LOS or nothing at all. That we could not and would not do. The east push this thing to arbitration not us. All we ever asked for was fairness and all we got was DATE OF HIRE!! So given the fact that the east was totally unreasonable we had no other choice but to go the way of a third party decisions. Had that decision been DOH then we would have sucked it up like men and dealt with it. We proved that with the lies from the east on the 757LOA and again with the very lopsided E190 Arbitration. You never once saw us behaving the way you folks behaved. We were upset but we dealt with it and moved on. Since that time the east has refused to even honor that arbitration which was in your favor. You have taken 100% of the seats giving us ZERO when the arbitration award clearly give us 33% of the seats!!

So you see, it's no wonder why we hate you. You lie cheat and steal then attempt to make us the bad guy. You even sic your flight attendants on us as well and I'm sure they have no clue at all as to the real situation only that of the east which has got whining down to a science. I see no peace between us until you honor your obligations.

 

[Pi brat]

A joint solution was offered to your mec on more than one occasian prior to even going to mediation. The east mec wasted days and money going to mediation PRIOR to arbitration. We never ever wanted to go to arbitration but what choice did they leave us?? It was DOH LOS or nothing at all. That we could not and would not do. The east push this thing to arbitration not us. All we ever asked for was fairness and all we got was DATE OF HIRE!! So given the fact that the east was totally unreasonable we had no other choice but to go the way of a third party decisions. Had that decision been DOH then we would have sucked it up like men and dealt with it. We proved that with the lies from the east on the 757LOA and again with the very lopsided E190 Arbitration. You never once saw us behaving the way you folks behaved. We were upset but we dealt with it and moved on. Since that time the east has refused to even honor that arbitration which was in your favor. You have taken 100% of the seats giving us ZERO when the arbitration award clearly give us 33% of the seats!!

So you see, it's no wonder why we hate you. You lie cheat and steal then attempt to make us the bad guy. You even sic your flight attendants on us as well and I'm sure they have no clue at all as to the real situation only that of the east which has got whining down to a science. I see no peace between us until you honor your obligations.

Sigh.........when you run into someone who doesn't speak english do just say the same thing over and over and louder and louder in english, thinking they will get it?

As Stephen Wolf said "We are where we are".

I don't understand what is going on with the 757/EMB. I thought you guys got those seats when we have a joint group. If it is not going as the arb stated why are you not taking it up with the company? Is that, along with global warming, USAPA's fault.

I wouldn't sic our F/A on anybody!

I don't think there will ever be peace between us until something comes up that threatens all as a group. We will be like the PI/US pilots were until the Nic award came out and unified us.

Enough of this. If you want to respond put it on the US pilot thread. We are off topic on a UA board.