US Pilot Labor Thread 9/7-14

[Richard]

Thread for the new week.

 

[boeingtamer]

Even though I am from the East I favor immediate implementation of the Nicolai award with a new contract. I envision a contract with a reasonable additional cost to the corporation. Much like the current AWA pay scale is set up, it would have a single pay rate for all equipment types including the 190. The pay steps would be increased to have longevity pay scale increases up to 40 years. The junior rates would have to be reduced somewhat and the senior rate increased. While bidding on equipment types and seats would be based on the Nic seniority, ones paycheck would be based on longevity pay steps and position. We would also reduce the differential between CAP and F/O rates. For example, a 23 year A320 F/O would make about $130/ hr and a 6 year 320 CAP would make about $ 95/ hr. A six year F/O would make $ 85/hr while a 23 year CAP might get $140. A 40 year CAP would probably be something like $ 300/hr while a 40 year F/O is $270. You get the idea. While this may mean a temporary reduction in gross annual pay for some West Captains, most will have more than enough years left in their career to recoup any losses before retirement.

This would allow us to get beyond Nic and move on in a fair way that rewards the main thing that
is under our control that we bring into the merger, years of good service. If we wait for the courts to weigh in this thing could drag on for years. Let's negotiate a fair contract, like I propose, and just give the West what they want, implementation of Nic. It may not be as far fetched as you first think. :huh:

With tongue firmly in cheek, I say to the West. Be careful what you wish for. It is possible to win and still lose. The only way to a lasting peace is for both sides to come together in compromise. For West pilots to enter into USAPA, elect their own reps, and negotiate something that is fair. We all know Nic, though fairly won, was NOT fair. Neither is a USAPA imposed DOH without considerable restrictions to protect the west. My point is, this war will never stop unless a negotiated settlement is made. One side may win a temporary advantage from time to time, but the battle will continue. We all will lose.

 

[Res Judicata]

With tongue firmly in cheek, I say to the West. Be careful what you wish for. It is possible to win and still lose. The only way to a lasting peace is for both sides to come together in compromise. For West pilots to enter into USAPA, elect their own reps, and negotiate something that is fair. We all know Nic, though fairly won, was NOT fair. Neither is a USAPA imposed DOH without considerable restrictions to protect the west. My point is, this war will never stop unless a negotiated settlement is made. One side may win a temporary advantage from time to time, but the battle will continue. We all will lose.

Who does the West "negotiate" with? Even if the west had any real participation they're beholden to your hindsight driven CB&Ls. Mathematically, USAPAs CB&Ls make sure that the West has no say in what happens to them in any regard. USAPA totally disenfranchised the West and stripped them of any meaningful reps. The NMB made no decisions as to the legality or fairness of the actions that would be taken by the new CBA, only that there were sufficient numbers to warrant an election. Just because USAPA is the NMB recognized entity does not mean at all that they can run rough shod over Contract Law, (despite the thoroughly ignorant and regurgative legal opinions of a handful of East guys with their Multi-Thousand rhetorical posts.). The West was stripped of their rights and therefore, had no place to go but to Federal Court. RLA addresses Union contracts. However, it has no arm for, or mandate to, enforce them.

That's where the AZ Superior Court enters the picture. So, in my former Metrojet pilot, not- a- West- pilot- now-either opinion, I sincerely hope the West prevails, get's what is rightfully owed to them, and the Cancer on trade unionism known as "USAPA" accelerates it's death spiral. Clearly, your assertion that "we all know" Nic was Unfair isn't true. You don't speak for me. I will however, agree with your observation that one can "win but still lose". I think USAPA has proven that.

I used to be sympathetic to East pilots...I used to be one of them. Now I'm just disgusted and embarrassed to have ever been a US Air "new hire", (a distinction one holds for a ridiculously depressing long time at US Air). USAPA is making everyone's collective bed and you'll all have to lie in it. I know I'm just peeing into the Wind, and a cavalcade of the Usual East Suspects...all 4 of you, will blow a vein, hold your breath, stomp your feet, and resort to the OCD like references to yawning and stretching over my opinion. That's Okay. I don't care what they think either.

I do hope however, that after the next major implosion at US Air, the east guys finally figure out whom to blame for all of their failures...the guy in the mirror.

 

[ussnark]

Even though I am from the East ....

Okay, so you once worked for the east, now you work for the west. No wonder you want the "nic". Beautiful.

We all know Nic, though fairly won, .....

Peoples lives and careers are not games, to be won or lost.

Any arbitrator should know enough that the lists were incorrect as well as the meme that US was "going out of business and AWA saved them" was completely wrong. Either that or he is exceptionally stupid.

Sorry, the fact that he dealt with incorrect lists, alone, makes your assertions of "fair" way off base. As stated, many times, had compensations been made for incompatible contracts ( virtually assigning 600+ pilots to the east list for a "relative seniority") would have lessened the east response. Unfortunately, the west wanted everything, ignoring that as well as a LOS offer at Wye River.

So, be careful what you wish for........ the west is where they were before the "merger" nonsense. It really can get worse, for the west.

 

[BottomFeeder]

I sincerely hope the West prevails, get's what is rightfully owed to them, and the Cancer on trade unionism known as "USAPA" accelerates it's death spiral.

Welcome Newbie,

Does your current job have a union shop? Are you currently a union member? If so which union would that be?

 

[Res Judicata]

Welcome Newbie,

Does your current job have a union shop? Are you currently a union member? If so which union would that be?

I'm an ALPA member. That fact, in no way influences my opinions. I'm just as candid with them as I am with anyone. ALPA has it's short comings to be sure. No argument here. However, USAPA doesn't share a single strand of DNA with any known trade union. It is in lock-step with tyrannical dictatorships. There alone lies the rub.

 

[boeingtamer]

I used to be sympathetic to East pilots...I used to be one of them. Now I'm just disgusted and embarrassed to have ever been a US Air "new hire",

I really don't get you. Why would you feel that being hired by a company in some way reflects negatively upon you? Guilt by association? I guess if you are trying to demonize all US pilots, the mere act of being hired contaminates you in some way. If you actually did work here( and you sound more like a former East ALPA rep impostor to me), you would know that we have a quite diverse group and until Nic, we hardly ever could stick together on anything. Rather than try to stereotype the West pilots, which I know is diverse but united largely behind fears of what the East pilots might or might not be able to "do" to them, I will stick to the topic.

I think you miss the point of my post. The courts really don't count. Unless we change the hearts of many pilots on both sides, this company will not be a place worth working for the next 15 years or so. Even if a court were to try to impose Nic, it won't work. Nic is not a basically fair award. Neither would a DOH without any restrictions to protect the West be fair. The West can try to win in court, and USAPA can try to force their will, but unless their is some minimal level of fairness, it will not stand. That's what revolutions are made of. Nic was so unfair that it united pilots that couldn't agree on anything and an unprecedented revolution took place in ALPA. Even NWA-Republic and all it's generally accepted inequity couldn't do that.

I fully understand that the West pilots feel they won fairly as I agree they did... but most in their hearts and despite their rationalizations know it really wasn't a fair award. Now they cling to their booty not realizing that they risk losing even more because of their hardened position. Only when West pilots join in and try for a fair compromise is there a chance of making US Airways a place worth working at. Knowing human nature, I'm not holding out much hope. The war will go on until the last East pilot retires, or the last West pilot is discharged for failure to pay dues... or they both get so tired of the war that they finally sit down and talk.

 

[Res Judicata]

I really don't get you. Why would you feel that being hired by a company in some way reflects negatively upon you? Guilt by association? I guess if you are trying to demonize all US pilots, the mere act of being hired contaminates you in some way. If you actually did work here( and you sound more like a former East ALPA rep impostor to me), you would know that we have a quite diverse group and until Nic, we hardly ever could stick together on anything. Rather than try to stereotype the West pilots, which I know is diverse but united largely behind fears of what the East pilots might or might not be able to "do" to them, I will stick to the topic.

I think you miss the point of my post. The courts really don't count. Unless we change the hearts of many pilots on both sides, this company will not be a place worth working for the next 15 years or so. Even if a court were to try to impose Nic, it won't work. Nic is not a basically fair award. Neither would a DOH without any restrictions to protect the West be fair. The West can try to win in court, and USAPA can try to force their will, but unless their is some minimal level of fairness, it will not stand. That's what revolutions are made of. Nic was so unfair that it united pilots that couldn't agree on anything and an unprecedented revolution took place in ALPA. Even NWA-Republic and all it's generally accepted inequity couldn't do that.

I fully understand that the West pilots feel they won fairly as I agree they did... but most in their hearts and despite their rationalizations know it really wasn't a fair award. Now they cling to their booty not realizing that they risk losing even more because of their hardened position. Only when West pilots join in and try for a fair compromise is there a chance of making US Airways a place worth working at. Knowing human nature, I'm not holding out much hope. The war will go on until the last East pilot retires, or the last West pilot is discharged for failure to pay dues... or they both get so tired of the war that they finally sit down and talk.

I'll ask you again since you failed to pickup on my very first sentence. Who does the West "negotiate" with when there is one party? There is a paper trail 100 miles long that will nail USAPA and it's DOH mantra. Moreover, I submit that most East pilots are following their [USAPAs] advice like lemmings because it's what they want to hear and it's the path of least resistance, (human nature). Again, Who should they[the west] "sit down and talk with"? Why should the listening party care what they say and "constitutionally"(by design I'll add) what can they do? What rights do the disenfranchised minority actually have outside of Fedral Court? Please consider answering these basic questions before you start accusing me of false identities and selectively understanding my post. I think this is pretty basic. What are you not understanding?

 

[freedom]

Sometimes i wonder if the mods shouldn't rename these threads "people who fly planes and hate each other "

 

[ussnark]

I'm an ALPA member.

And you pay ALPA dues? Please post your invoices/payments.

 

[fodase]

I really don't get you. Why would you feel that being hired by a company in some way reflects negatively upon you? Guilt by association? I guess if you are trying to demonize all US pilots, the mere act of being hired contaminates you in some way. If you actually did work here( and you sound more like a former East ALPA rep impostor to me), you would know that we have a quite diverse group and until Nic, we hardly ever could stick together on anything. Rather than try to stereotype the West pilots, which I know is diverse but united largely behind fears of what the East pilots might or might not be able to "do" to them, I will stick to the topic.

I think you miss the point of my post. The courts really don't count. Unless we change the hearts of many pilots on both sides, this company will not be a place worth working for the next 15 years or so. Even if a court were to try to impose Nic, it won't work. Nic is not a basically fair award. Neither would a DOH without any restrictions to protect the West be fair. The West can try to win in court, and USAPA can try to force their will, but unless their is some minimal level of fairness, it will not stand. That's what revolutions are made of. Nic was so unfair that it united pilots that couldn't agree on anything and an unprecedented revolution took place in ALPA. Even NWA-Republic and all it's generally accepted inequity couldn't do that.

I fully understand that the West pilots feel they won fairly as I agree they did... but most in their hearts and despite their rationalizations know it really wasn't a fair award. Now they cling to their booty not realizing that they risk losing even more because of their hardened position. Only when West pilots join in and try for a fair compromise is there a chance of making US Airways a place worth working at. Knowing human nature, I'm not holding out much hope. The war will go on until the last East pilot retires, or the last West pilot is discharged for failure to pay dues... or they both get so tired of the war that they finally sit down and talk.

I think you don't grasp what is going on here, it will either be the Nic. or not, a court of law will decide, and east, west, and management will abide by it. I find it amusing that you think there is room to "negotiate" with a union who's only position is to harm the west, we see that with disparate furloughs going on right now, the protection of the 6 junior easties out west, the fact that doh is not applied to east pilots only westies, etc. How much money and quality of life improvements have the east leadership usapa and alpa cost each east pilot in money and quality of life? You admit that the east is breaching a contract they made, you claim that Nic. is unfair, that's the easts opinion, I believe that usapa is unfair, but I have to accept it, just like you will accept the Nic.

 

[Res Judicata]

And you pay ALPA dues? Please post your invoices/payments.

Of Course, How about my W2s, K1s, LLC Articles of Organization, Business Licenses, 401k statements, 1099s, 1031 exchanges, my SSN, Tax Returns, address, My employee number, My mothers Maiden name? Sure.

No omnipotent dictatorship mentality here.

I was furloughed after 9-11 from US Air and moved on with my life shortly there after. That's all you need to know.

 

[BottomFeeder]

I'm an ALPA member. That fact, in no way influences my opinions. I'm just as candid with them as I am with anyone. ALPA has it's short comings to be sure. No argument here. However, USAPA doesn't share a single strand of DNA with any known trade union. It is in lock-step with tyrannical dictatorships. There alone lies the rub.

Newbie,

You did not answer the question. You said you were ALPA but you did not say if your job is part of a union shop?

 

[boeingtamer]

Who does the West "negotiate" with when there is one party?

I am starting to doubt you are who you say you are having such intimate knowledge of USAPA inner workings and documents...still I'll answer. Is that you Mr.Freund?
The west can be represented just as the east pilots are. They can vote just as the east pilots can. This isn't about voting though. Are you saying that in your beloved ALPA that they're are not negotiations between various local councils to find compromise. It happened when I was in ALPA and I'm sure you have seen it too. Of course when pilots freely refuse to take part in the dialog you are correct that their interests are not heard. That is their choice however.

 

[trunion]

I think you don't grasp what is going on here, it will either be the Nic. or not, a court of law will decide, and east, west, and management will abide by it. I find it amusing that you think there is room to "negotiate" with a union who's only position is to harm the west, we see that with disparate furloughs going on right now, the protection of the 6 junior easties out west, the fact that doh is not applied to east pilots only westies, etc. How much money and quality of life improvements have the east leadership usapa and alpa cost each east pilot in money and quality of life? You admit that the east is breaching a contract they made, you claim that Nic. is unfair, that's the easts opinion, I believe that usapa is unfair, but I have to accept it, just like you will accept the Nic.

How could a judge decide to implement the nic when even ALPA could not without a majority vote. The nic would not have survived even under ALPA. The east was the majority there too. No one seems to mention that.