US Pilot Labor Thread--ALL Pilot/Union Issues Discussed Here

[V1cut]

Thanks Nos...great post.

So, Mr. Tazz....10.5 years?...WOW!...that makes you....what....FURLOUGHED in the big picture.

It makes you a pissant, when compared to the guys out East who have 23 years and can't hold a left seat in a 73, much less Airbus. You guys can all shovel coal up your pipe if you think you're getting a raw deal with USAPA.

Nobody is making you "pay" for the East screw-job...but you will NOT benefit from it either.

Count on that.

 

[BoeingBoy]

It makes you a pissant, when compared to the guys out East who have 23 years and can't hold a left seat in a 73, much less Airbus.

Freudian slip, perhaps....

So it up to the West pilots, who had no hand in the misfortunes of the East pilots, to give up their seniority so the East pilots can have the seniority they "deserve"?

Jim

 

[nycbusdriver]

The company was indeed not a party to the arbitration, but they accepted the results,

This is an interesting point of view that has taken on a life of its own. The company accepted DELIVERY of the Nic list last December. They did not weigh in on its viability either way. It sits in Parker's desk drawer.

In exactly the same way it could be argued that the company "accepted" the Section 22 list that the USAPA nC passed across the table to the company a few months back. Right now, it's probably sitting in the same desk drawer as the Nic list. Does that give it any more or less weight?

Neither one is functional right now, and Parker is expectedly mum on where the company stands.

There is a HUGE difference between "accepted" and "accepted delivery."

 

[Piedmont1984]

Freudian slip, perhaps....

So it up to the West pilots, who had no hand in the misfortunes of the East pilots, to give up their seniority so the East pilots can have the seniority they "deserve"?

Jim

No one in PHX is being asked to give up their seniority in PHX. They simply can't use that PHX seniority to the detriment of east pilots in east bases.

Lets not forget that ALPA's solution was permanent, separate operations.

 

[cleardirect]

This is an interesting point of view that has taken on a life of its own. The company accepted DELIVERY of the Nic list last December. They did not weigh in on its viability either way. It sits in Parker's desk drawer.

In exactly the same way it could be argued that the company "accepted" the Section 22 list that the USAPA nC passed across the table to the company a few months back. Right now, it's probably sitting in the same desk drawer as the Nic list. Does that give it any more or less weight?

Neither one is functional right now, and Parker is expectedly mum on where the company stands.

There is a HUGE difference between "accepted" and "accepted delivery."

Bus driver,

Incorrect!

Parker sent out a signed letter stating that he had accepted the list. It met the 5 conditions the company had set.

He also wrote two checks for $300,000.00 each to the MEC’s for the list. You are trying unsuccessfully to portray it as if Parker simply signed the Fed Ex receipt. By accepting the list not just delivery he became part of the Nicolau arbitration.

Did Parker send any letters acknowledging your DOH list? Did he write a check for your list?

 

[Megasnoop]

No one in PHX is being asked to give up their seniority in PHX. They simply can't use that PHX seniority to the detriment of east pilots in east bases.

Pied, well said.

Lets not forget that ALPA's solution was permanent, separate operations.

Depending on what "permanent" is. With some kind of no-furlough provision (either by contract or by our winning the 2 TA disputes), the right conditions and restrictions could make the NIC look like DOH. LOS looks dead. Any chance of that was killed by the West at Wye River.
If the West had accepted LOS, dave O-dell would have over 400 below him, and no furlough.

Separate operations? Why not? If somehow the west pull the NIC out of their hat in court (chances imo near zero), all they got is an award that has no value until we got a single contract which merges the two lists. Nothing to keep our NAC from negotiating a new contract which keeps the two operations separate. A page right out of the ALPO book.

For the sake of argument (possibility somewhere near zero), lets say the courts uphold NIC as final and binding. Still, the only way to implement it is to get ALPO back on the property. 16 months away, if ever. While usapa may be forced by court to live with the NIC (again, imho, chances near zero), usapa is under no obligatin to follow ALPO merger policy and put the award into effect with an operationlly meged list. Snoop, aka Pete the pilot

 

[Metroyet]

For the sake of argument (possibility somewhere near zero), lets say the courts uphold NIC as final and binding. Still, the only way to implement it is to get ALPO back on the property. 16 months away, if ever. While usapa may be forced by court to live with the NIC (again, imho, chances near zero), usapa is under no obligatin to follow ALPO merger policy and put the award into effect with an operationlly meged list. Snoop, aka Pete the pilot

How stupid are Federal Judges in your fantasy world? I'm more than confident that he's smarter than your collective brain trust and the weasel seham. If the Nic. is upheld, it's over. The intent was ruled on. That's the list. His ruling will most certainly contain restrictions barring your band of flaccid wanna be thugs from abusing the system and twisting it to their benefit (AGAIN). At the end of the Trial, (which will begin in January if jurisdiction remains in Fed. Court) the ruling is that "binding is in fact binding" your side is done. You have your list, you will have no where else to run and no other entity to cry to or threaten if your demands aren't met. DP will wash his hands of the whole thing claiming it was a ruling by the court. "sorry guys, nothing we can do"

So your fantasy of a third "do over" (if you don't like what you're told AGAIN) by manipulating the system and abandoning your sides DFR to the west, isn't going to work again. The Judge is way smarter than that.

 

[nostradamus]

your band of flaccid wanna be thugs

Typical strong emotions from the angry narrow body airplane club.

 

[EastUS]

LSS,

Other issues are discussed but seldom resolved. For instance there has been a resolution passed supporting paying furloughees medical insurance payments. This thread generally supported that resolution and it passed. Now will come the debate on if the west has to pay the assesment. As an objector, I feel I am not subject to assesments of this kind, but have pledged to pay it anyway.

I'm of the thinking that any possible help for those suffering furloughs should be afforded to all those put in that sad situation..east and west. I believe that it's the right thing to do, and shouldn't be limited by the existent west vs east strife in any way. I'm just one vote though, and it's properly pretty tough to find a whole lotta' sympathy out east for the west group these days. ("QUOTE (Metroyet "your band of flaccid wanna be thugs"...."And Achieving a contract that pays better than Mesa Airlines is equally far away as well. Enjoy ) Awww...ain't they jess' tha' cutest little thangs when they're still puppies? Quite frankly..I have absolutely no sympathy left myself, but do not see those furloughed as being any "foes", but rather just pilots suffering from circumstances beyond their/our control.

 

[EastUS]

Tazz: "I personally have 10.5 years since starting at AWA. The Nicolau list places me amongst east 1986 hires. That's 10.5/22-23. Not 8/23. On the date of the merger I was a junior captain on the 737, where I will remain until downgrade class in November. The east pilots around my seniority on the Nicolau list were also junior captains but will remain captains after I downgrade. The fact that they worked twelve more years than I did is irrelevant to our respective positions when merged."



The west "Righteous Position" in it's entirety = "The fact that they worked twelve more years than I did is irrelevant"..........(insert whatever "integrity" anyone can possibly imagine or even farcicly attempt to ascribe)

 

[Piedmont1984]

How stupid are Federal Judges in your fantasy world? I'm more than confident that he's smarter than your collective brain trust and the weasel seham. If the Nic. is upheld, it's over. The intent was ruled on. That's the list. His ruling will most certainly contain restrictions barring your band of flaccid wanna be thugs from abusing the system and twisting it to their benefit (AGAIN). At the end of the Trial, (which will begin in January if jurisdiction remains in Fed. Court) the ruling is that "binding is in fact binding" your side is done. You have your list, you will have no where else to run and no other entity to cry to or threaten if your demands aren't met. DP will wash his hands of the whole thing claiming it was a ruling by the court. "sorry guys, nothing we can do"

So your fantasy of a third "do over" (if you don't like what you're told AGAIN) by manipulating the system and abandoning your sides DFR to the west, isn't going to work again. The Judge is way smarter than that.

Once again, final and binding also applies to elections. The arbitrator's decision was followed by the collective pilots' decision one year later. So both events are final and binding and both are incompatible with each other.

If the court rules in favor of the Nic, they will be pronouncing, in fact, that a lawfully elected union may not decide upon it's own constitution. The court will be telling an established union that it must act in complete contravention to it's own C&BL's.

Now dats a one speecy spicy labor law legal precedent.

 

[LSS]

The court will be telling an established union that it must act in complete contravention to it's own C&BL's.

Now dats a one speecy spicy labor law legal precedent.

Typically, the Federal courts are loathed to involve themselves in inter-union business.

 

[Tiger 1050]

Once again, final and binding also applies to elections. The arbitrator's decision was followed by the collective pilots' decision one year later. So both events are final and binding and both are incompatible with each other.

If the court rules in favor of the Nic, they will be pronouncing, in fact, that a lawfully elected union may not decide upon it's own constitution. The court will be telling an established union that it must act in complete contravention to it's own C&BL's.

Now dats a one speecy spicy labor law legal precedent.

Pied,
I do not think it is quite that simple. I wonder, do you guys out east have access to the brief's that have been filed regarding this suit? If so I would implore you to read them. They have been quite educational. At least for me... Anyhow, after reading through these I would tend to believe that it is in fact contrary to the law for the majority to act in a way that avoids responsibility to a minority group. In other words even if the majority did vote a certain way the leadership must act to support the minority as well.

(97) A union violates the DFR if it decides a bargaining position without
considering the interests of all represented workers. Letter Carriers v. NLRB, 595
F.2d 808, 811 (D.C.Cir. 1979).
(98) A decision of the majority does not reflect a proper consideration of the
legitimate interest of the minority if the majority decides by voting its individual
interests. Id.
(99) Before a union “lawfully could follow the dictates of the majorityâ€￾ it
must “determine[] in good faith that the decision [of the majority] reflected a proper
resolution of conflicting but legitimate interests.â€￾ Alvey v. General Elec. Co., 622
F.2d 1279, 1289 (7th Cir. 1980).
(100) Seniority disputes in particular should not be decided solely by
considering the preference of the majority. “uch decisions may not be made
solely for the benefit of a stronger, more politically favored group over a minority
group. To allow such arbitrary decision-making is contrary to the union's duty of
fair representation.â€￾ Barton Brands, Ltd. v. NLRB, 529 F.2d 793, 798-99 (7th Cir.
1976).


Having this in mind I do not think that, as you suggest, that they go hand in hand. The Judge can rule to enforce the Nic while allowing USAPA to maintain it's DOH in the C&BL's so long as it's only for future integration. Again, I believe this is possible due to the fact that USAPA and it's C&BL's came after the fact... It's already been agreed to. The east is trying to change this post arbitration.

This is just my opinion! And I'll be the first to say I could be way off base but this is how I see it...

Tiger

 

[BoeingBoy]

No one in PHX is being asked to give up their seniority in PHX. They simply can't use that PHX seniority to the detriment of east pilots in east bases.

I guess you believe in the Easter Bunny too. I've seen nothing in the C&R's that says a West pilots seniority in PHX is guaranteed - only the jobs under certain circumstances. So as a more senior East pilot (system seniority) gets into PHX, the West pilots will be pushed down - the definition of a loss of seniority. Furthermore, I'd be willing to bet a small sum that at least half the Captains in PHX will be East pilots within 2 years - the top half at that.

I do love how people who have never worked with C&R's are so expert on the subject that they can project the effects years into the future.

Jim

 

[Piedmont1984]

You are describing either a growth scenario, which no one should be complaining about - or a voluntary relinquishing of protected PHX slots by their own pilots.

And the Tooth Fairy told me long ago that the Easter Bunny was nothing but pure fiction.