US Pilot Labor Thread--ALL Pilot/Union Issues Discussed Here

[flynomore]

I guess you believe in the Easter Bunny too. I've seen nothing in the C&R's that says a West pilots seniority in PHX is guaranteed - only the jobs under certain circumstances. So as a more senior East pilot (system seniority) gets into PHX, the West pilots will be pushed down - the definition of a loss of seniority. Furthermore, I'd be willing to bet a small sum that at least half the Captains in PHX will be East pilots within 2 years - the top half at that.

I do love how people who have never worked with C&R's are so expert on the subject that they can project the effects years into the future.

Jim

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Thanks for repeating what I noticed and listed here back when the conditions were posted.

In the current environment, I seem to remember that "West" pilots have preferential bidding into any new openings in either PHX or LAS. Or did I over-interpret?

 

[Piedmont1984]

Triumph

I'm not saying things may not go your way. I'm just saying there is strong case law on both sides and that neither side has a monopoly on integrity or honor.

 

[Tiger 1050]

Triumph

I'm not saying things may not go your way. I'm just saying there is strong case law on both sides and that neither side has a monopoly on integrity or honor.

I can agree with that...

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Pied,
I do not think it is quite that simple. I wonder, do you guys out east have access to the brief's that have been filed regarding this suit? If so I would implore you to read them. They have been quite educational. At least for me... Anyhow, after reading through these I would tend to believe that it is in fact contrary to the law for the majority to act in a way that avoids responsibility to a minority group. In other words even if the majority did vote a certain way the leadership must act to support the minority as well.

(97) A union violates the DFR if it decides a bargaining position without
considering the interests of all represented workers. Letter Carriers v. NLRB, 595
F.2d 808, 811 (D.C.Cir. 1979).
(98) A decision of the majority does not reflect a proper consideration of the
legitimate interest of the minority if the majority decides by voting its individual
interests. Id.
(99) Before a union “lawfully could follow the dictates of the majorityâ€￾ it
must “determine[] in good faith that the decision [of the majority] reflected a proper
resolution of conflicting but legitimate interests.â€￾ Alvey v. General Elec. Co., 622
F.2d 1279, 1289 (7th Cir. 1980).
(100) Seniority disputes in particular should not be decided solely by
considering the preference of the majority. “uch decisions may not be made
solely for the benefit of a stronger, more politically favored group over a minority
group. To allow such arbitrary decision-making is contrary to the union's duty of
fair representation.â€￾ Barton Brands, Ltd. v. NLRB, 529 F.2d 793, 798-99 (7th Cir.
1976).


Having this in mind I do not think that, as you suggest, that they go hand in hand. The Judge can rule to enforce the Nic while allowing USAPA to maintain it's DOH in the C&BL's so long as it's only for future integration. Again, I believe this is possible due to the fact that USAPA and it's C&BL's came after the fact... It's already been agreed to. The east is trying to change this post arbitration.

This is just my opinion! And I'll be the first to say I could be way off base but this is how I see it...

Tiger

You do understand, I hope, that NLRB precedents don't apply to airline employees. Those cases you cited all appear to deal with the NLRB, which do NOT apply to employees covered by the RLA.

Besides, what you WANT and what's best for you in the long term can be argued by USAPA lawyers to be different. All they need to show is that there are reasons that DOH would make your long term career better, which I believe it would, especially in a future merger scenario.

 

[Tiger 1050]

You do understand, I hope, that NLRB precedents don't apply to airline employees. Those cases you cited all appear to deal with the NLRB, which do NOT apply to employees covered by the RLA.

Besides, what you WANT and what's best for you in the long term can be argued by USAPA lawyers to be different. All they need to show is that there are reasons that DOH would make your long term career better, which I believe it would, especially in a future merger scenario.

Oldie,
You may be right. However I am inclined to believe that the lawyers know better than you or I. If it were so easily dismissed then I'm quite sure they would not have wasted their time. Those quotes are from the brief's I'd ask you to read. Somehow I get the impression you refuse to or USAPA is hiding them from you guys...

Your second point brings me back to the point I was trying to make initially. USAPA's intention to "represent" the west and decide "what is best" for us is the issue. USAPA missed the boat when there was NO input from any west pilots regarding their C&BL's. How can one argue they know whats best when there has been no attempt to hear our concerns. The leadership has a legal and moral obligation to represent ALL pilots. Not just the majority... RLA or NLRB. It's still labor law.

 

[N924PS]

Furthermore, I'd be willing to bet a small sum that at least half the Captains in PHX will be East pilots within 2 years - the top half at that.



Jim

Hi Jim,

I would bet that within two years, we'll be right where we are now.

No changes until after LOA 93 is dead and beyond. That's when management MIGHT get serious about negotiating a contract. Until then they will gleefully watch the East and West pilots chase their tails.

 

[cleardirect]

Typical strong emotions from the angry narrow body airplane club.

Nos,

I find this a very interesting comment. With the east only having 19 W/B airplanes that means about 90% of you east pilots fly narrow bodies. With a growing percentage flying 190’s. A true narrow body. So who is really the angry narrow body club?

Next, do you measure your worth by the size of airplane that you fly. We are all pilots doing the same job. It sure sounds like airplane envy to me. Watch the almost genuflection during the meeting with Parker about the “8 senior international wide body captainâ€￾. It’s an airplane man relax.

Finally. Check back a few hundred posts. The only people that even mention wide bodies are east pilots. You guys remind of the birds in Finding Nemo.

Mine! Mine! Mine! Mine! Mine!

No one out here is discussing wide bodies. The east obsession with size is one of the reasons that got you in the position that you are in.

I personally have no desire to sit for 8 9 10 hours or more to do a flip flop. Not what I want to do.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Oldie,
You may be right. However I am inclined to believe that the lawyers know better than you or I. If it were so easily dismissed then I'm quite sure they would not have wasted their time. Those quotes are from the brief's I'd ask you to read. Somehow I get the impression you refuse to or USAPA is hiding them from you guys...

I've read most of them. As for your first point, I know some pretty stupid lawyers. Remember, one side ALWAYS has to lose. Therefore, in this case, one side's lawyer does, and one side's lawyer doesn't know more than me or you.

Your second point brings me back to the point I was trying to make initially. USAPA's intention to "represent" the west and decide "what is best" for us is the issue. USAPA missed the boat when there was NO input from any west pilots regarding their C&BL's. How can one argue they know whats best when there has been no attempt to hear our concerns. The leadership has a legal and moral obligation to represent ALL pilots. Not just the majority... RLA or NLRB. It's still labor law.

There is nothing I can find dealing with internal union arbitrations. The NMB AND NLRB deal ONLY with mediations and arbitrations between carriers and the employees/representatives. The whole union vs union thing isn't even addressed, except in the context of selecting a CBA. If you can find something along those lines, let me know. Until then, it appears to me to be an internal union dispute, which would be settled by the C&BLs of the union. Even the DFR thing is only addressed in so far as disputes between the CBA and the company, not within the union itself. There isn't even a means of appeal of the NIC since ALPA isn't in the picture, and the arbitration wasn't an NMB arbitration, but rather an ALPA one.

You're right, law is law. It appears to me that there is NOTHING that would legally prohibit USAPA from using its own C&BLs to determine it's union merger principles.

 

[cleardirect]

Oldie,

If you believe all that you have been saying here and the judge ultimately agrees with USAPA. That would be precedent setting.

However the end result would be extremely detrimental to the industry. USAPA could win this battle and destroy airlines and the pilot labor movement. Wonder how?

If USAPA succeeds in overturning binding arbitration and sets the precedent that a union can enter into a merger. If the larger group does not get what they want they just bail out. Form a new union and negotiate the seniority that the larger group wants. We have heard from the east “the majority decided’.

If that becomes the case how many smaller airlines would want to merger with someone larger. You would see very destructive behavior in order to stop any merger. That leaves the airline business weak. Forcing airlines to close instead of merger. Perhaps the smaller group demands a poison pill negotiated prior to the merger.

Either way USAPA’s place in history will be set. Known as the “unionâ€￾ that destroyed the airline business and the concept of binding arbitration.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Hi Jim,

I would bet that within two years, we'll be right where we are now.

Sorry, should have been clearer. Within 2 years of USAPA's DOH list with C&R's going into effect...

Jim

 

[Richard]

Another week--move it here--http://www.usaviation.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=44089

And please make SURE you read the First Post.

Thank you.