US Pilots Labor Discussion 10/13-- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[exB717Flyer]

How many West pilots would forget the Nic if the TA had that rate?

I dunno. Let's get a TA and find out, shall we?

 

[hp_fa]

Hp fa, which carries more weight with the law, when a contract says it can't be changed for when it doesn't mention it?

The simple answer is when it says it can't be changed. However that doesn't mean the contract can be changed to the detriment to one or more parties without their consent. The court is going to look at the intent of the contract as it determines the case.

USAPA has two big hurdles to overcome here. One, how can it possibly know the intent of the contract when they weren't a party to it and why would hundreds of thousands of dollars (or more) be spent to arbitrate a final resolution to a dispute when one party then contends the result was just a negotiating position.

 

[cleardirect]

How many West pilots would forget the Nic if the TA had that rate?

How many east pilots are willing to forget about DOH for $186 per hour?

 

[traderjake]

How many east pilots are willing to forget about DOH for $186 per hour?

Enough to get a contract passed.

 

[traderjake]

The beauty of the C/Rs are you get what you brought to the dance.

Then put C/Rs around the Nic award and put it out for a vote.

It won't happen because even East pilots know C/Rs are smoke and mirrors.

Under the Nic award everyone keeps what they brought to the dance.

 

[nic4us]

In the last CLT crew news Parker must say three times that they just want the pilots to give them a seniority list and that they don't care if it is in alphabetical order. Now why would he say that if your statement is really the case?

He is affirming my statement. The company is not going to negotiate seniority. As you just said they want "the pilots" to give them a list, not we will work with usapa to come up with a revised list. Well, "the pilots" already gave them a list, they paid for it, negotiations complete.

Mr. Parker also said, he was embarrassed to talk about it, five years into the merger, I guess that would explain his absence at the PHX crew news. He should be embarrassed. This debacle highlights the fact that he does not have the cajones to tell the east disgruntled malcontents, "end of story, stop your whinning, final and binding, now lets get on with bussiness", and just like Prater, he is going to lose the property if he does not put the hammer down and soon. Hence the request for declaratory judgement.

The company stated in their letter of joint statement of labor principles, that a DOH list would not be fair, and petitioned the work groups to come to equitable methods of integrating. The company signed the TA, which mandated ALPA merger policy as the means for pilot integration. If the company now reneges on their statements and contractual obligations, they will have proven themselves to be no better than the lowlife union busting SSM&P and usapa, and in my opinion, will no longer be worthy to operate in this industry.

 

[nic4us]

Nic4us,

I don't think anyone can dispute that the company has accepted the Nicolau award. The question is, does the TA say it has to be implemented? Does it say it can never be changed? I read it again the other day and didn't see those words.

A. The seniority lists of America West pilots and
US Airways pilots will be integrated in accordance
with ALPA Merger Policy and submitted to the
Airline Parties for acceptance. The Airline
Parties will accept such integrated seniority list,
including conditions and restrictions, if such list
and the conditions and restrictions comply with
the following criteria:

That is straight from the TA. As you say, there is no doubt that the company has "accepted the list".

The question you seem to be asking is what does "accept" mean.

accept v. to receive something with approval and intention to keep it. This use often arises on the question of accepting a payment which is late or not complete or accepting the "service" (delivery) of legal papers.

Also, this from the explanation portion of the TA regarding the implementaion of the list and showing intent and finality.

This critical provision prevents the merged airline
from using our integrated and final seniority list until
the two pilot groups (i.e., flight operations) are
physically merged and a single amalgamated collective
bargaining agreement exists.

So to answere your questions, I would say, the TA says if the company wants or now usapa wants a single CBA, yes, the Nic has to be implemented. Also, I do not see how it could be changed and yet be regarded as "final".

 

[Metroyet]

Mr. Parker also said, he was embarrassed to talk about it, five years into the merger, I guess that would explain his absence at the PHX crew news. He should be embarrassed. This debacle highlights the fact that he does not have the cajones to tell the east disgruntled malcontents, "end of story, stop your whinning, final and binding, now lets get on with bussiness", and just like Prater, he is going to lose the property if he does not put the hammer down and soon. Hence the request for declaratory judgement.

I have to also wonder what the "Good Union" pilots in attendance made of Parker's comment that this D.J. suit could be over in a matter of months if they didn't have to keep fighting motions to dismiss, (usapa) and requests for time extension (usapa). He flatly stated that there is a party to the litigation, (usapa) that DOESN'T WANT TO HEAR THE ANSWER....

Yep. DOH is right around the corner

 

[A320 Driver]

A. The seniority lists of America West pilots and
US Airways pilots will be integrated in accordance
with ALPA Merger Policy and submitted to the
Airline Parties for acceptance. The Airline
Parties will accept such integrated seniority list,
including conditions and restrictions, if such list
and the conditions and restrictions comply with
the following criteria:

That is straight from the TA. As you say, there is no doubt that the company has "accepted the list".

The question you seem to be asking is what does "accept" mean.

accept v. to receive something with approval and intention to keep it. This use often arises on the question of accepting a payment which is late or not complete or accepting the "service" (delivery) of legal papers.

Also, this from the explanation portion of the TA regarding the implementation of the list and showing intent and finality.

This critical provision prevents the merged airline
from using our integrated and final seniority list until
the two pilot groups (i.e., flight operations) are
physically merged and a single amalgamated collective
bargaining agreement exists.

So to answere your questions, I would say, the TA says if the company wants or now usapa wants a single CBA, yes, the Nic has to be implemented. Also, I do not see how it could be changed and yet be regarded as "final".

Nic or NO Nic, the company is stalling this as long as possible. Look at the CLT Crew News for September, then the one last week. In September Parker stated a single CBA was "months, not years" away. Last week he said a single CBA would take a LONG TIME.

It doesn't even sound like they intend to settle ANY of the contentious issues until this thing has run it's course in the court system. Your precious Nic award is shelved for the foreseeable future.

Driver B)

 

[exB717Flyer]

Nic or NO Nic, the company is stalling this as long as possible.

You're confusing the cause with the effect. The company's stalling is the effect of the USAPA-caused seniority dispute. As soon as USAPA accepts the Nic list the company drops the suit and viola, no more impediments to getting a new contract. Try it!

Your precious Nic award is shelved for the foreseeable future.

You're too generous. The Nic isn't just for the West, it's precious for ALL of us. Time to manage your expectations a little better.

 

[Al Legheny]

A. The seniority lists of America West pilots and
US Airways pilots will be integrated in accordance
with ALPA Merger Policy and submitted to the
Airline Parties for acceptance. The Airline
Parties will accept such integrated seniority list,
including conditions and restrictions, if such list
and the conditions and restrictions comply with
the following criteria:

That is straight from the TA. As you say, there is no doubt that the company has "accepted the list".

The question you seem to be asking is what does "accept" mean.

accept v. to receive something with approval and intention to keep it. This use often arises on the question of accepting a payment which is late or not complete or accepting the "service" (delivery) of legal papers.

Also, this from the explanation portion of the TA regarding the implementaion of the list and showing intent and finality.

This critical provision prevents the merged airline
from using our integrated and final seniority list until
the two pilot groups (i.e., flight operations) are
physically merged and a single amalgamated collective
bargaining agreement exists.

So to answere your questions, I would say, the TA says if the company wants or now usapa wants a single CBA, yes, the Nic has to be implemented. Also, I do not see how it could be changed and yet be regarded as "final".

Well now...The Transition agreement also says in the final section:

XII. Effective Date, Modification, Status of Letter of Agreement, and Duration
This Letter of Agreement:

A. Will take effect on the date of execution set forth below

B. May be modified by written agreement of the Association and the Airline Parties
collectively;

The parites have the right to modify the agreement.

 

[BoeingBoy]

The parites have the right to modify the agreement.

That's been the case since the TA was signed (there were just more parties then). But USAPA has a responsibility to act within it's DFR responsibilities, including any modification it may want to make to the TA, and the company is not going to agree to a change that could/would make it a co-defendant in a hybrid DFR suit.

Jim

 

[Pi brat]

Probably not that many since they wouldn't make that when pushed back to FO.

Jim
[/quote


That's the same logic for many east pilots to not vote for a contract with the Nic.

 

[Pi brat]

However that doesn't mean the contract can be changed to the detriment to one or more parties without their consent.

Then I should have been going to court for the last 20 years because my contract has constantly been changed to my detriment without my consent, and often it was done with harm to the minority. I think the key word has been solely.

 

[crazystnic]

Probably not that many since they wouldn't make that when pushed back to FO.

Jim

Jim, don't stink up the place..
Nobody is going back to F/O

COMPLETE untruth....