US Pilots Labor Discussion 2/17- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[Richard]

Here is the new thread for the week.

As a reminder, ONLY moderators can start labor related threads, and off topic posts and those which violate the rules of the board will be deleted in their entirety.

 

[boeingplt]

Biggest City by hair volume

1.Philadelphia

 

[nic4us]

Hey Luvn- the Phila metro region, METRO REGION, PHL, Trenton, Wilmington De. and all the suburbs dwarfs PHX. Yes, maybe the city limits of PHX hold more than PHL.The overall population draw is much greater. Next time you get that long final in PHL, check it out.I wonder why SWA keeps coming on here? Even Parker gets it.

Actually according to the US Office of Management and Budget. The PHL metro area ranks #5 in the U.S. with an overall total population of 5.9 million. PHX ranks #12 with a total population of 4.3 million, and is hardly "dwarfed" by PHL.

However, major differences included the PHL metro area (aka Delaware Valley metro area)is overlapping with adjacent communities and it population numbers might be slightly inflated, where PHX only counts the Valley of the Sun. It would be like counting Tuscon, Yuma and Flagstaff in the PHX population, (which by the way when added to PHX just about exactly equals PHL). Also, PHL has one of the highest poverty rates in the country ranked #10 as opposed to PHX ranked #30, so the number of potential passengers is very similar.

But the original theme to the thread is who would wants a PHX hub. The answere is USAirways LCC. We want both a PHX (#12) and a PHL(#5) hub. Ask yourself this, why would anyone want a SFO (#13), SEA(#15),SLC(#49),MSP(#16), hub. The answere is only partially because of their respective population, but much more importantly how the logistics of getting the passenger from their house in Lancaster, PA to disneyland or the bussiness meeting/convention in the most convienent route for them and the most efficient use of equiptment for the airline is accomplished.

So in the fragmentation scenarios everybody is throwing around, both PHX and PHL are viable, but it is awfully crowded near PHL by JFK,EWR,IAD,BWI and PHX is sort of close to LAX.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Population base doesn't mean anything to an airline unless those people fly somewhere. As I said before to BS, PHL is #11 in O&D traffic so it's rank as #5 in MSA population means only that PHL doesn't produce the O&D it should for a MSA it's size (unlike NYC and Washington which DO produce O&D traffic to match their MSA size). So while PHL's MSA population may make a good debating point, that statistic is meaningless from an airline perspective.

I'll say again - PHL was and is the best option for a northeast hub that US had available. That doesn't mean that AA, UA, or CO would see it the same way.

Jim

I understand what you are saying. My point is that there is very likely just as many people from the PHL catchment area flying. They are simply flying out of airports in adjacent metro areas. Why? For one, EWR has many more non-stop options, especially in international markets. USAirways was trying to change that, and they were having some success until the bottom fell out of transatlantic flying. SWA is also having some effect in PHL. I would bet that the O&D numbers will change as they add service. Not that such a thing would be very helpful to LCC, or any other legacy. But people are creatures of habit. When they try PHL (within theior own metro area,) they may find it convenient and continue looking to PHL for further travel needs.

Having grown up in northern NJ, it amazed me that so many folks (displaced New Yorkers) would travel to LGA to go fly, and bypass EWR even for an equivalent flight. Why? Because they had the "LGA is the NY airport" mindset. And back then, little could be done to change it. Better, more effective marketing changed that. That's what PHL needs.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Biggest City by hair volume

1.Philadelphia

...and that's just the guys.

 

[BoeingBoy]

My point is that there is very likely just as many people from the PHL catchment area flying. They are simply flying out of airports in adjacent metro areas.

I agree with that. However, there's another factor - 10-12% of O&D traffic from any medium/large metro area is to/from NYC or Washington. Because of PHL's location it doesn't get that traffic since the train/car is much greater competition due to the distances involved. So PHL will have less O&D than it should for an MSA it's size. Throw in the greater international possibilities out of EWR/JFK/IAD and PHL will be an also ran to those airports. The only legacy airline that might possibly have some slight interest in PHL is AA since they have no true hub in the northeast - JFK/LGA/EWR effectively provides the benefits of a hub but it's not a single airport hub.

Jim

 

[john john]

My point is that there is very likely just as many people from the PHL catchment area flying. They are simply flying out of airports in adjacent metro areas. Why? they may find it convenient and continue looking to PHL for further travel needs.

Having grown up in northern NJ, it amazed me that so many folks (displaced New Yorkers) would travel to LGA to go fly, and bypass EWR even for an equivalent flight. Why? Because they had the "LGA is the NY airport" mindset. And back then, little could be done to change it. Better, more effective marketing changed that. That's what PHL needs.

A lot of airports in close proximity with a large population and congested roads surround by water with tunnels and bridges
. This often determines airport selection

 

[Richard]

Back on subject please...the size of a market PHX vs PHL has nothing to do with the pilots' dispute and labor situation.

 

[flyinawa]

A lot of airports in close proximity with a large population and congested roads surround by water with tunnels and bridges
. This often determines airport selection

More than ticket price?

 

[Metroyet]

Biggest City by hair volume

1.Philadelphia

No way. Dallas. 1983 is alive and well down there.

 

[cleardirect]

Since the topic has drifted lets have some fun.

What would an integrated seniority list look like if Parker gives the east their dream shot? Split the east and send you to AA or UAL. Since the east believes that If the west goes to republic the same methodology would be used as Nicolau so we can use this for the east‘s next merger.

Just one point to clear up. We have heard the howls of the furloughed and the outrages of the others that furloughed pilots should be given their rightful place on the list.

Just a few facts to compare from pilot central.

USA:
Pilots:
Total 5272
Active 5048
Furloughed 224

East pilots

Total 3600
Active 3450
Furloughed about 150

Wide bodies 26

Junior captain May 1988 E-190

UAL:
Pilots:
Total 7733
Active 6392
Furloughed 1341

Wide bodies 113

Junior captain Dec 1995 A320

AA:
Pilots:
Total 11,166
Active 8738
Furloughed 1890

Wide bodies 120

Junior captain Mar 1992 MD-80

We know that DOH will not be used.

First things first. Does the integrity of the east allow the furloughed pilots to be mixed with the active pilots or do we use the Nicolau method and place them at the bottom?

Next a little simple math. Because the east had WB, Nicolau set those aside. 517 east pilot got a windfall on 26 WB 19.9 per airplane.

UAL gets the first 1720 spots before the first east WB pilots finds the list.
AA gets the first 1854 spots before the first east WB pilots find the list.

Since this merger what has been the mantra from the east? Majority rules and what the majority wants the majority can do to the minority.

UAL 7733 USA 3600 beat by 4133
AA 11166 USA 3600 beat by 7566

You guys go ahead and dream of splitting off and finding what you think is your rightful place among the legacy carriers. Just on pure numbers and nothing else how do you think you guys are going to turn out in that deal? You all had better pray for relative seniority. Keep in mind how much those two unions think about the east pilots, especially the UAL guys after the last try. I still hear about it from jumpseaters. Your reputation has proceeded you.

Enjoy!

 

[Black Swan]

EDITED BY MODERATOR TO DELETE QUOTE--DO NOT QUOTE POSTS IMMEDIATELY NEAR YOUR RESPONSE.

OK I know why they want the topic to be the pilot labor deal. It has the most hits, and therefore the highest price for the side ads. There is only one, and one way to kick this thing off again on the right track. MIKE CLEARY

 

[boeingplt]

OK I know why they want the topic to be the pilot labor deal. It has the most hits, and therefore the highest price for the side ads. There is only one, and one way to kick this thing off again on the right track. MIKE CLEARY

Best thing ever to happen to us!

 

[Black Swan]

EDITED BY MODERATOR TO REMOVE QUOTE--SEE NOTE ABOVE


Remember, the AA guys don't give one thought of ALPA, so you have made that one up entirely. You must not have realized they dumped ALPA way before we did. As far as UAL, they are well aware of certain lets' say, aberrations in union loyalty in your ranks that the East does not have. I have seen no animosity from the UAL guys. So our reputation has not PRECEDED us. As far as the 517 getting the WINDFALL? How do you get a windfall when you are hired 10 years before you guys were even around as an airline? This strange thinking is what is keeping your senior guys from getting a deal on the 330. Your angry F/O club is keeping them from getting what they probably rightfully should get a crack at. I bet there is going to be some pressure from them to get the junior west guys off the lottery ticket and to get real.I expect they will not provide you with the solidarity you think you have. Anyway, I have to go write MIKE CLEARY a little note, to tell him to keep up the great work. Have a nice day Mythbuster. The AA guys being mad at us for leaving ALPA is keeping a smile on my face.

 

[Black Swan]

Best thing ever to happen to us!

boeingplt, you are the man!