US Pilots labor Discussion 12/4-

[nic4us]

I am amazed that the west pilots hope that we lose this grievance!

So much for us in the east to look forward to in 2010.........

I do not see where you get this. Almost every West poster has said we hope you win this grievance. You may be confusing the general opinion that you are not going to win, with a desire for you to lose, or the non-support of usapa's count down clock and these hollow 1-1-10 threats as opposition to your pipe dream, but really, the West wants you to win this arbitration.

On a completely different note, just finished watching the last usapa video, and it looks like Seeham is all preped for his 15 minutes. Please tell me he is going to go in front of the 9th with the same bag of lies he spews in the videos. He list like 5 reasons the circuit court was wrong, but all his reasons are not the facts associated with the cases he cites. Everything he says simply amplifies judge Wakes finding that usapa and SSMP rely on subterfuge and a distorted interpretation of case law. For instance, he either does not understand or simply straight up lies about the dispatchers integration. Well, maybe it will work on the 9th, but I am thinking 3 federal judges at the appellate level will see right through Seehams revisionist view of history, and send usapa packing.

Yes, so much for the east, looking forward to 2010.

 

[N924PS]

quote name='luvn737s' post='719313' date='Dec 6 2009, 09:00 AM']

So much for us in the east to look forward to in 2010.........

Hate

P.S. Just heard that in the new rule making coming out in March 2010..........flying more than 3 time zones is going to require a min. 36 hour layover........translation all Trans Atlantic flying will become 4 Day trips............looks like all the airlines with long range flying will have to recall/hire.

The new rules won't be out that soon.

First comes the Notice of Proposed Rulemeaking followed by a comment period. Then comes the rule. It won't be as soon as March 2010.

Check out this video on Pilot Fatigue/Flight Time/Duty Time :

http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/290343-1&start=2

Pay close attention to the committee's interest in pilots that commute.

 

[Reed Richards]

On a completely different note, just finished watching the last usapa video, and it looks like Seeham is all preped for his 15 minutes. Please tell me he is going to go in front of the 9th with the same bag of lies he spews in the videos. He list like 5 reasons the circuit court was wrong, but all his reasons are not the facts associated with the cases he cites. Everything he says simply amplifies judge Wakes finding that usapa and SSMP rely on subterfuge and a distorted interpretation of case law. For instance, he either does not understand or simply straight up lies about the dispatchers integration. Well, maybe it will work on the 9th, but I am thinking 3 federal judges at the appellate level will see right through Seehams revisionist view of history, and send usapa packing.

Yes, so much for the east, looking forward to 2010.

I am continually amazed those like you continue to attack the professionalism of the East lawyers. With a few exceptions, I have seen very little of that going the other direction. I just don't get that behavior. The closer we get to the last hearing, the more you guys ramp up the personal slams.

If the Ninth wanted to "send USAPA packing" they simply could have passed on taking the case in the first place. But they did take it. There are issues here that go way beyond the squabbling of two pilot groups, and the Judges will be addressing those issues. Like I have said here many times, a complete win by Addington going forward here fundamentally changes the way labor law is applied going forward. Unions will be sued by disgruntled minorities over contract proposals, Unions will be held accountable for actions prior to certification, Unions will be forced to use internal policy set by the union that proceeded them, and much more.

Maybe the application of the law will change..who knows what the Ninth is thinking. They already "have" the case before them, and I am sure they will show up with questions. I look forward to the transcript and/or recordings of the procedures. I look forward to the arguments and answers presented by both sides. I do not look forward to your continued personal attacks on our lawyers.

RR

 

[exB717Flyer]

I do not look forward to your continued personal attacks on our lawyers.

Best get used to it. As long as Seham keeps telling you what you want to hear instead of the reality the criticism is well-deserved. Seriously, how many more court cases does Seham have to lose before you fire him?

 

[HPDriver]

Best get used to it. As long as Seham keeps telling you what you want to hear instead of the reality the criticism is well-deserved. Seriously, how many more court cases does Seham have to lose before you fire him?

We out west keep asking what USAPA has actually accomplished in its nearly two year run on property.

I think the east pilots need to ask what Seham has accomplished for USAPA.

 

[Reed Richards]

Best get used to it. As long as Seham keeps telling you what you want to hear instead of the reality the criticism is well-deserved. Seriously, how many more court cases does Seham have to lose before you fire him?

This deserves more than a short reply, but for an outline I seem to remember AZ Addington State case being dismissed, as well as AZ Fed Counts 1 and 2. I call those Wins. Seham and Company represented USAPA in the NMB Dues Arbitration, I call that a win. The Breeger case in NC Fed...Win. I can think of at least one pilot that is back working having been fired, Win. You don't seem to think much of the RICO suit, but the Win is there...the behavior was shut down.

Much, much more. As to the loss in Judge Wake's court, and a loss it was indeed..... Seham not only got us to the 9th, but got them to take the case on an expedited basis. Looks to me like a Win in the 9th (and remember, all it takes is a win on one argument) pretty much puts Seham and Company batting somewhere in the 900's....I just don't know how to score the RICO since it’s a gift that keeps on giving.

RR

 

[nic4us]

I am continually amazed those like you continue to attack the professionalism of the East lawyers. With a few exceptions, I have seen very little of that going the other direction. I just don't get that behavior. The closer we get to the last hearing, the more you guys ramp up the personal slams.

If the Ninth wanted to "send USAPA packing" they simply could have passed on taking the case in the first place. But they did take it. There are issues here that go way beyond the squabbling of two pilot groups, and the Judges will be addressing those issues. Like I have said here many times, a complete win by Addington going forward here fundamentally changes the way labor law is applied going forward. Unions will be sued by disgruntled minorities over contract proposals, Unions will be held accountable for actions prior to certification, Unions will be forced to use internal policy set by the union that proceeded them, and much more.

Maybe the application of the law will change..who knows what the Ninth is thinking. They already "have" the case before them, and I am sure they will show up with questions. I look forward to the transcript and/or recordings of the procedures. I look forward to the arguments and answers presented by both sides. I do not look forward to your continued personal attacks on our lawyers.

RR

First off, I am attacking usapa's lawyers, not the "east lawyers." usapa represents both east and West, and therefore SSMP are my lawyers to slam as I see fit. It is this attitude that got usapa in the trouble they are in from day one. A complete lack of representation of the the West to the point of hostile discrimination. This suit is not about the Nic, its about this DFR discrimination. usapa was formed in the back of a van with the sole purpose of stealing from the West to favor the east, end of story. Frankly, the entire world does not care if the Nic was fair or not, it was reached by binding arbitration from a third party neutral ( in this country that is as fair as it gets), the former east pilots deseserved no more or less than that award, yet since they thought they could steal more from the West they tried by forming usapa. Blatant DFR, and the only lawyer willing to fuel the van our current counselor.

A complete win by Addington, will not change anything. You are falling for Seeham's line of BS. Unions will be sued over contract proposals, yes, and if those proposals are illegal, as in our case, they will lose, really no change. Unions will be held accountable for illegal actions they take prior to certification, no change there. Unions will be forced to adhere to contractual policies of there predecesor union, seems to be the status quo.

But lets look at what a usapa win would change. A union could reneg on its contracts simply by having its members certify a name change. A union could take advantage of dual unionism for the purposes usapa seeks. A union could violate minority rights at will. Arbitration will no longer be usable by unions or under the RLA (no point in arbitration if you can simply ignore the result). Past arbitrations could be voided by unionization.

Bottom line, I to look forward to the transcripts and broadcast. If I hear Seeham mention any of the fabrications he threw out there in the recent videos, well then our lawyer will be most deserving of the slams headed his way, but my guess is those slams will continue to come from individuals wearing black robes, much less those typing online anonymously.

 

[Reed Richards]

First off, I am attacking usapa's lawyers, not the "east lawyers." usapa represents both east and West, and therefore SSMP are my lawyers to slam as I see fit.

And just when I thought I had seen every angle possible......

RR

 

[nic4us]

I just don't know how to score the RICO since it’s a gift that keeps on giving.

RR

Ah yes, RICO. Ya know, once usapa, ( by founding principle a corrupt organization) is shown to have a track record of misusing the legal system for illigitimate purposes, those Cactus 18 folks just might use the same RICO statutes against usapa, can you say triple damages.

 

[Metroyet]

And just when I thought I had seen every angle possible......

RR

Amazing. You. Still. Just. Don't. Get. It.

 

[Hate2fly]

Amazing. You. Still. Just. Don't. Get. It.

Lets put it this way.............We have it and you will never get it!

Hate

 

[nic4us]

And just when I thought I had seen every angle possible......

RR

So you are saying what? That I am not represented by usapa? That usapa's quest for the "gold standard" of seniority integration is not in my best intrest? I am shocked!

This is the first, last and only angle the West has argued. Nothing about the Nic. usapa and Seeham always bring up the Nic. The Nic is irrelevant. usapa was formed to benefit the east at the West expense, giving no regard to the harm they sought to cause the West. usapa does not and to this day will not represent West pilot's interest if that conflicts with their agenda/constitution of favoring the east position at the West's expense.

 

[nic4us]

Lets put it this way.............We have it and you will never get it!

Hate

Yes, you most certainly have it! Thank god, it is not contagious.

 

[Reed Richards]

So you are saying what? That I am not represented by usapa? That usapa's quest for the "gold standard" of seniority integration is not in my best intrest? I am shocked!

This is the first, last and only angle the West has argued. Nothing about the Nic. usapa and Seeham always bring up the Nic. The Nic is irrelevant. usapa was formed to benefit the east at the West expense, giving no regard to the harm they sought to cause the West. usapa does not and to this day will not represent West pilot's interest if that conflicts with their agenda/constitution of favoring the east position at the West's expense.

You can stop sputtering now. Yes, he is our lawyer. You come here and demean a man day after day, now suddenly claim he represents "you." No, his ideals represent what the majority of pilots here believe. He indeed represents you in all matters contract and discipline, but don't for minute think he has any obligation to further your minority dreams. This is indeed USAPA's "quest," and quite frankly you bring up an important point..what USAPA seeks does not necessarily have to be in your personal "best interest." Don't confuse your day to day representation with the goals of the majority of the Union members here. But you know that. The issues are clear, and all your hate and logic contortions will not change what is happening.

RR

 

[exB717Flyer]

Seham not only got us to the 9th, but got them to take the case on an expedited basis.

Wow, I can't believe I failed to notice Seham's influence over the appellate court. Of course, our side not opposing the motion had nothing to do with the court's decision. Regardless, you're right: Seham has done a stellar job for USAPA and I'm blind not to have seen it. On Tuesday we shall all see how Seham's interpretation of law is superior to the judges.