100 Seaters For Eagle?

[LD max]

"You may also want to list the concessions that the Eagle pilots provided to AMR."

Working at Eagle IS the concession. AA pilots' pay 'cuts' are more than over half of what Eagle pilots (FO's) get paid a year. How could Eagle pilots possibly give concessions when they have nothing to give? We get treated far far inferior to AA, even after their concessions.

AMR is the common enemy, yes. However, Eagle extended a hand to APA to get us merged on one list. What happened? APA feinted a true desire to finally get us all together and to work together. Then, they made an underhanded grab at ALL future AE captain positions at Eagle and the CRJ. Trust was totally obliterated. The correct path was not chosen.

The whole AE AA RJ mess will only continue to escalate now that APA made the first move to farther segregate Eagle and ruin any trust from EGL ALPA to work together in the future. EGL ALPA is merely trying the same tactics APA has used, except out in the open.

Do I, as an Eagle pilot, want to see Eagle get the RJ's. To be honest, NO I do not. I would like to make a decent wage one day and have decent benefits. RJ's, however, are not going away. Eagle is not going away. We may merely be 'sold' to hide the books easier.

The only real solution was to merge (pre 9/11) but then new hires might have to fly at the regional level for a few years. No one at the majors seemed to want that to happen. So, the guys at the regional level try to gain experience and by the same token, regionals grow and take their own futures down. In a merge, pay and benefits as a whole would have come down temporarily until we could fight to improve the situation - together. It is far too late for that now.

Management has us all by the b*lls right now. They have perfected the whip saw. APA bit. Now, with this recent letter to mgmt from ALPA, they bit as well.
If the larger RJ's fall into managements definition of 'cost prohibitive' to fly mainline, then they 'might' go to Eagle. If not Eagle, then Chataqua or MESA (painted like Eagle just as in STL).
It's a sad situation.

 

[eolesen]

AMR is the common enemy, yes.

How silly of me. I thought that Jetblue, Airtran, Continental, etc. were the real common enemy...

 

[LD max]

"How silly of me. I thought that Jetblue, Airtran, Continental, etc. were the real common enemy... "

I stand corrected. I fell into the trap that envelops most of AMR corporation. We spend so much time in-fighting that how could we possibly stand against competition. There is a huge finger pointing cycle going on. A flight leaves late, and there has to be particular blame, for example. Not that anything ever gets fixed but it has to be 'somebody's fault'. This is entirely against any form of team effort.
Who flys what is for the betterment of themselves, not the company. That is what you get when you run a company with the "whip saw". It is managements responsibility to turn the tide, otherwise "Jet Blue, Airtran, Continental, etc" will eventually eat our lunch. I get the feeling that most employees at AMR spend most of their focus against management than against the competition.
It's hard to become the "best". It is twice as hard to "stay" the best.

 

[Mach85ER]

How silly of me. I thought that Jetblue, Airtran, Continental, etc. were the real common enemy... Former ModerAAtor

We might not be in this mess if the total fools from Crandall on down didn't start each day for the last 15 years thinking how they were going to bone the labor groups and instead though about the competition AND security.

 

[Mach85ER]

should read "instead of thinking..."

 

[Busdrvr]

"Working at Eagle IS the concession. AA pilots' pay 'cuts' are more than over half of what Eagle pilots (FO's) get paid a year. How could Eagle pilots possibly give concessions when they have nothing to give? We get treated far far inferior to AA, even after their concessions"

The most senior AMR 777 capt makes less per hour than the MOST JUNIOR DAL 777 FIRST OFFICER! Your pay is based on what you fly. Do AE capts make less than ASA/ Comair F/O's on equivilent equip?

 

[planemech669]

The only mainline flying that AE is doing is it's own on new routes tht AA can not economicaly operate.
As for AE employee concesions, the concesions that AA pilots made brought them down from a level of twice that of a Eagle pilot to one of 1.5 times that of a Eagle pilot. You can't get anything out of people when they are payed the industry's equivalent of minimum wage.

 

[G4G5]

I keep hearing the same line, You can't get anything out of Eagle or we don't make industry wage.

No one is listening. You signed the contract. You went to work at Eagle fully aware of what the wage/scale was.

That's not the case for the AA folks. we had a contract and we gave back huge in an effort to save AMR. Funy thing is, the last time I checked Eagle was part of AMR.

After our give backs we are now on par with the lowest wages of any of the majors. So please don't tell me you have nothing to give when our max 777 capt pay rate is the equivallent of a 6 year DAL 777 fo.

Are any Eagle Captains making 6th year ASA FO pay rates?

This letter is beyond anything I can think of. AA mainline still has the 100 seat flying and the ink is not even wet on the furlough letters. Still the Eagle MEC has the Brass B's big enough to write a letter to AMR mgt. claiming that he is will to steal the 100 seat flying and do it for less. Just another case of lowering the bar and hurting the profession. I thought you guys would have learned something after that contract you signed.

 

[wrx]

I keep hearing the same line, You can't get anything out of Eagle or we don't make industry wage.

No one is listening. You signed the contract. You went to work at Eagle fully aware of what the wage/scale was.

That's not the case for the AA folks. we had a contract and we gave back huge in an effort to save AMR. Funy thing is, the last time I checked Eagle was part of AMR.

After our give backs we are now on par with the lowest wages of any of the majors. So please don't tell me you have nothing to give when our max 777 capt pay rate is the equivallent of a 6 year DAL 777 fo.

Are any Eagle Captains making 6th year ASA FO pay rates?

This letter is beyond anything I can think of. AA mainline still has the 100 seat flying and the ink is not even wet on the furlough letters. Still the Eagle MEC has the Brass B's big enough to write a letter to AMR mgt. claiming that he is will to steal the 100 seat flying and do it for less. Just another case of lowering the bar and hurting the profession. I thought you guys would have learned something after that contract you signed.

It sounds like someone needs to re-live the 1970's!!

 

[LD max]

"After our give backs we are now on par with the lowest wages of any of the majors. So please don't tell me you have nothing to give when our max 777 capt pay rate is the equivallent of a 6 year DAL 777 fo.

Are any Eagle Captains making 6th year ASA FO pay rates?"

Actually, yes. The Saab captains make about that, year for year.

Just because AA pilots get paid lower than Delta, not low, does not justify ever more 'extreme' low pay at Eagle. Our most senior captains make less than the most junior AA FO. A seven year FO here makes 32K a year, just barely above AA probie pay. We are barely making it as it is. Just about every benefit that we do have is inferior. No retirement, etc. What shall we give to AMR that they do not already take or subsidise to the AMR (AA) bottom line?
Regardless of the pay cut, you guys are fortunate to have been given a chance to fly for AA and make a 'decent' wage. Asking Eagle to take pay cuts or comparing Eagle Captains to ASA FO's is Apples to Oranges. Even with the pay cuts, you can still afford a new car, decent house (whats that?), kids, etc.
You guys should be pressing AMR to get pay raises for Eagle (since they won't listen to us) if, for nothing else, for at least your flowback guys.
Sure we signed on here on our own free will. It's ok to dream. To want to work your way up to a major. I tried to fly for the USAF, even spent 4 years there. That didn't work. so plan B. Here I am. If it weren't me it'd be someone else. I wasn't here when that 16 year debacle was signed. Admittedly I was nieve to come here, but such is life. You live, you learn.

 

[eolesen]

We might not be in this mess if the total fools from Crandall on down didn't start each day for the last 15 years thinking how they were going to bone the labor groups and instead though about the competition AND security.

I don't disagree with you, but the flip-side of that comment is that we might not be in that mess if everyone else didn't spend the past 20 years worrying about how their paycheck compared to that of the competition....


On WN's earnings call yesterday, Jim Parker with Raymond James asked WN CFO Gary Kelly how he reconciled his higher pilot costs with where the rest of the major airlines were now.

Kelly explained that the airline has always tried to manage its costs so it could be profitable. As a result, what the airline paid its employees was always what the airline could afford to pay, and still be profitable, and not necessarily what the "other airlines" were paying.

"So, with regard to the pilots, they took a pay freeze for five years. Yes, pilot pay rates now are, in some cases, higher [than our competitors]. In some cases, they are lower. But we are not going to set our wages based upon our competitors," he said. "We set a fair wage for our employees -- one that allows the company to make money."


That's one reason why WN is profitable, and we're not.

There's plenty of blame to go on for the past, so perhaps what each of us, labor and management alike, needs to be doing is to be willing to break with the past.

All we have to do is follow what WN has been doing for 30 years....

It won't happen overnight, but it also won't happen with only one side making an effort.

 

[Busdrvr]

"Our most senior captains make less than the most junior AA FO."

The most junior 2000 AMR F/O's make $0

 

[jetdryvr]

Personally I took roughly a 45 % paycut when I was displaced from Captain to FO at Eagle, I have seen my benifits get smaller and go up in cost faster than yours, I have seen AE profits support AA's bottom line. I see greedy AA pilots who want to create there own version of the flowback that is far outside its actual writing. Our actual departures are lower than last years, we are not taking AA flying only doing what you can not do efficiently. Who is the enemy? The outsourceing to a inferior product at CHQ and TSA.

 

[AirwAr]

I can believe that AA employees (management, pilots, FAs, mechanics, etc.) had priced themselves out of the 100 seat aircraft, although I don't have any numbers to back it up, I am willing to take management’s word on it. But I really find it hard to believe that after all the pay & benefits cuts that it is still true. I wish someone could post the financials to prove that our employee costs for 100 seaters are so far out of line that we should allow them to go to Eagle.

When we started down this road of pay cuts, Carty continuously stated that our costs do not have to beat, or even match, those of the low cost carriers. He said that our airline is able to generate a 20%-30% premium so he would expect our costs to be comparatively higher.

I admit that before our pay cuts, I had suggested on this board that AA create an entity to handle the flying of 70-100 seaters. The idea was to staff the all coach aircraft with current union members, but at rates comparable to low cost carriers. My belief being that these employees would make more than Eagle employees, but less than AA staff. There were other items in this, but you get the point.

Now, however, with the deep pay cuts that we all took, are our current wages/benefits so far out of whack from the low cost units that we can't profitably operate the 100 seaters? If they are, how much more would we have to cut to be competitive? Surely, we would not have to cut all the way to Eagle rates. Although I don't know their rates, I find it hard to believe that Southwest employees are working at the pay/benefit level of Eagle.

 

[jimntx]

I can believe that AA employees (management, pilots, FAs, mechanics, etc.) had priced themselves out of the 100 seat aircraft, although I don't have any numbers to back it up, I am willing to take management’s word on it. But I really find it hard to believe that after all the pay & benefits cuts that it is still true. I wish someone could post the financials to prove that our employee costs for 100 seaters are so far out of line that we should allow them to go to Eagle.
[I deleted some here for length.]
I admit that before our pay cuts, I had suggested on this board that AA create an entity to handle the flying of 70-100 seaters. The idea was to staff the all coach aircraft with current union members, but at rates comparable to low cost carriers. My belief being that these employees would make more than Eagle employees, but less than AA staff. There were other items in this, but you get the point.

Now, however, with the deep pay cuts that we all took, are our current wages/benefits so far out of whack from the low cost units that we can't profitably operate the 100 seaters? If they are, how much more would we have to cut to be competitive? Surely, we would not have to cut all the way to Eagle rates. Although I don't know their rates, I find it hard to believe that Southwest employees are working at the pay/benefit level of Eagle.

You're on the right track. I also do not see how moving 100-seater to AE would save that much except on cockpit salaries--and I'm guessing on that statement.

As far as f/a's pay...
With not quite 3 years on the line when I was furloughed 01July, I was making $22.10/hr (after the concessions). A STARTING flight attendant at AE makes $17.67/hr under their current contract which is in negotiations at this time. That's only $4.43/hr less and I'm assuming that the 100-seater trips might go rather senior. Top of scale at AE for f/a's is around $29/hr currently.

Where's the savings?