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113 cars make over 40MPG

I guess I used a poor choice of words. I have not found a US manufactured car that meets my requirements. There are several US cars that I like such as a Corvete, Viper, 300 series, Sky/Solarius (I may have that last name wrong) but they do not meet all my needs. I want a rear wheel drive car, nicely equipped, limited electronics, fuel efficient, safe, more than likely used, decent resale value. My wife just bought a E300 Diesel. It had 61k on the ODO. Bought it for $12k from a dealer. Care is clean as a whistle and makes well over 30mpg on day to day driving. From what I saw, there was nothing on the market that could come to it. Most people do not take care of cars in general. MB/BWM/Audi … tend to be better taken care of do to their cost. Since her car is 12 years old, the only electronics on it are ABS brakes. The AC is push button instead of the older dials but I guess it's the cost of progress. It’s a full size sedan that will hold 5 people. It is pretty easy to do most maintenance on it my self, no need to worry about tunes ups, the engine should last 300k or more. Yes maintenance is a bit more costly but it is a car we will be able to keep for another 10, 15 or more years. My MB is 20 years old and still going strong.

I simply do not see that kind of longevity in US cars, at least not yet.

You drew the comparison between a Saturn and VW. I am a car lover. My car is an extension of who I am to a degree. It is not merely transportation from A to B. I would chose the VW over the Saturn in a heart beat due to the fact that the VW will out perform the Saturn and the VW just looks and feels better IMO. If I was looking for basic transportation from A to B, and was looking for a throw away car after a few years, I'd go with the Saturn. It's going to have lower resale, and while it may cost more to maintain the VW, my hunch is the Saturn will not be worth fixing due to depreciation.

My dad had a 1989 BMW 750IL. The car was a beast. We bought it at an auction. 12 cylinders of raw power. Kept it for 10 years with out any problems. Great mileage on the hwy to, about 23 or 24 at cruising speed. There was not a US car made that could touch it in terms of fit/finish or capability. Cadillac and Lincoln are the only luxury US manufactures and they did not have sh1t in 89 that could even come close.

I am partial to German cars. They have been building cars that are meant to be driven for decades and they are very very good at it. That's why they are the bench mark that everyone else strives for. My wifes 300 will do 120 130 all day long if asked to and it won't over heat, won't float all over the road at speed. It will do what it is designed to do. The US is starting to design cars to be driven. Corvett can finally be in the same sentence as a Porch 911 with people laughing.

The bottom line seems to be that while US cars are getting better, they have a way to go to break away from their history. They still don’t make cars that compete on the styling and mileage level of Japan and Europe. It's like we are a step behind and a dollar short. The big 3 are still hanging their fortunes on trucks and SUV's while everyone else see the writing on the wall about fuel prices. Does any US manufacture even have a clean diesel on the block for 2008? MB and VW do. I thought I heard the Honda will as well. Chrysler has a diesel 300 in Europe? Why not here. The engine is MB engine which is being sold here in the US in MB's, why not the 300?
I am a mechanic and have been around automotives my entire life, 55 years. A childhood friend that I still stay in touch with has a speed shop out of Pittsburgh that is nationally known for the work he performs on race engines. He doesn't touch anything foreign. Your crap about American cars not going the distance is just that, crap. Parts and repairs are a lot more expensive on foreign cars, even junk yard parts are pricy on foreign and plenty of them can be found in the junk yards. You want the yard names, I’ll provide them.

You remind me of the guy who thinks he lives in the jungle driving a Rover thru the city. It makes a guy like that feel good while wasting a ton of money he obviously doesn't care about because his ego is priceless.

If you maintenance any car it will last a lifetime, but maintaining anything foreign cost more from the day you buy it until you sell it with ever increasing cost for everything in-between.

Go to Edmund.com and other reputable sites and look up the track record in the archives on maintenance and recalls of anything made in Germany to see just how dismal their cars really are. You are blinded by your bias, and obvious over inflated ego.

You are a true believer, the kind that can't be reasoned with. I am not here to change your twisted logic just throwing some sanity to your insane post.
 
I am not here to change your twisted logic just throwing some sanity to your insane post.

And yet you continue to spew hot air.


I guess this is yet another case where you must be right and anyone with a differing opinion must be wrong. We all know how that story ends.
 
And yet you continue to spew hot air.
I guess this is yet another case where you must be right and anyone with a differing opinion must be wrong. We all know how that story ends.

Your the one who spews alot of hot air along with all your commie/socialist liberal fruit cake sidekicks. like your hero Al Gore who preaches global warming while living like some rock star, your the proverbial hypocrite who thinks your opinion is some how changing the world for the better.

Your gonna find out how the story ends alright, its gonna take you by surprise like a thief in the night. 😀
 
Your the one who spews alot of hot air along with all your commie/socialist liberal fruit cake sidekicks. like your hero Al Gore who preaches global warming while living like some rock star, your the proverbial hypocrite who thinks your opinion is some how changing the world for the better.

Your gonna find out how the story ends alright, its gonna take you by surprise like a thief in the night. 😀

No worries, I have my marshmallows and shish-ka-bobs (sp?) ready. I’ve got friends bringing beer and ice. We are golden.

I love it, when in doubt question a person patriotism, call them a commie socialist and tell them that they will burn in hell. You folks need a new game plan. That one is really dated and worn out. We as a society have matured far beyond your voo-doo magic garbage. We know what causes eclipses, earth quakes … etc.
 
You drew the comparison between a Saturn and VW. I am a car lover. My car is an extension of who I am to a degree. It is not merely transportation from A to B. I would chose the VW over the Saturn in a heart beat due to the fact that the VW will out perform the Saturn and the VW just looks and feels better IMO. If I was looking for basic transportation from A to B, and was looking for a throw away car after a few years, I'd go with the Saturn. It's going to have lower resale, and while it may cost more to maintain the VW, my hunch is the Saturn will not be worth fixing due to depreciation.

I'm a bit confused as to the reason for this thread. You started off by saying we are getting screwed since there are not as many fuel efficient vehicles on US roads as there are in Europe. Then you went on to refer to the cars coming out of Detroit as POS's.

However then you seem to completely contradict yourself by basically saying you are more concerned about performance and looks than anything else. Then you top it off by saying that you have no problem buying a POS as long as it's made by a German company. To me that makes absolutely no sense.

May I also point out that Saturn’s are not a "throw away car". As I already pointed out mine has over 100000 miles with no non-routine issues. A co-worker of mine has one with over 200000 miles. Also they have pretty good resale value, especially in states that use salt on the roads. Plus you're not going to have to worry about spending that much money to fix it in the first place. But I guess if looking cool is more important than having a reliable car with good gas mileage then the VW is the way to go. Just remember that I'll be driving past in my plain old Staurn while your VW is up on a lift.


My dad had a 1989 BMW 750IL. The car was a beast. We bought it at an auction. 12 cylinders of raw power.

Please stop talking about wastefull SUV's and trucks then.
 
I am partial to German cars. They have been building cars that are meant to be driven for decades and they are very very good at it. That's why they are the bench mark that everyone else strives for. My wifes 300 will do 120 130 all day long if asked to and it won't over heat, won't float all over the road at speed. It will do what it is designed to do. The US is starting to design cars to be driven. Corvett can finally be in the same sentence as a Porch 911 with people laughing.

The Germans do make some of the most beautiful cars on the road today. In the fit/finish and looks department that's what a lot other manufacturers look at. However in the reliability and complexity department things are a bit different. What that saying about BMW and keeping them under warranty? Just look at the problems BMW has had with the idrive. The Germans have a tendency to over engineer and the end result is something like the idrive, overly complex and trouble prone.
 
As for the technicality of the vehicles today I agree 100%. That's one of the main reasons I have no interest in a new vehicle, be it German, Japanese or American. Seems there is a mentality that the more expensive a vehicle, the more bells and whistles it has to have on it. The new S class MB has infrared night vision, a cruise control and brake system merged into a radar system, Lexus can park it's self. I know that to manufacture cleaner running engines computers must be used to give the ability to adjust fuel mixture and what have you on the fly.

For what it is worth, a European can go into a BMW/VW/Audi/MB show room and order a striper of a car. No iDrive, Command, MMI crank windows, no sun roof, manual seats, base engine … etc. My guess is here in the states they are trying to maintain a certain level of exclusivity to maintain their price level. Were they to sell their cars at the same level as American cars, the price points would probably be pretty close.

I do not see how anyone can afford to buy a new car today and keep it once the warranty runs out. You can no longer bring it to your local neighborhood wrench monkey. Unless they have the computers and the programming to diagnose the fault codes, they will not be able to touch it.

I do not recall saying that I had not problem buying a pos if made by a German. The vehicles I have had are quite reliable and IMO safe as well. My cars have never left me on the side of the road.

IMO opinion the quality of US vehicles is not as good as the Europeans once were. The quality world wide seems to be coming down for the same reason most things are, competition and the fact that consumers are not willing to pay for quality.

As for the 750, it was my dads car, not mine but as I said, it made very good mileage for a car f any size at the time, certainly better than any SUV of that time period.

BTW, why can I not have both performance and fuel efficiency and relyability

BTW, why can I not have performance, reliability and efficiency in one package. My car performs quite well, for a 20 yr old car with 155k on the clock it is quite reliable and it makes about 25 to the gallon on average driving.
 
I do not recall saying that I had not problem buying a pos if made by a German. The vehicles I have had are quite reliable and IMO safe as well. My cars have never left me on the side of the road.

By saying you would pick a VW even though they consistently rate at the bottom in terms of reliablity says otherwise.



IMO opinion the quality of US vehicles is not as good as the Europeans once were.

What an odd thing to say.


As for the 750, it was my dads car, not mine but as I said, it made very good mileage for a car f any size at the time, certainly better than any SUV of that time period.

I’m just pointing out that it’s kind of funny to be lecturing everyone about gas mileage when you have a family member who drove around in a gas guzzler.




BTW, why can I not have both performance and fuel efficiency and relyability

If one wants the most fuel efficent vehicle in the market one is not going to get something known for it's performance.
 
I would not go so far as to say there is a 'conspiracy' but I do not think it is a stretch to say there is a concerted effort by the UAW/car manufactures/oil companies to prevent these vehicles from being sold here in the US. The only part of that equation that does not make sense to me is the car manufacture part of it. They are having huge financial issues because they cannot sell their POS's here in the US. Seems to me if they would just start making them, lower production on their big POS's like SUV's, trucks…. Etc people would 'have' to buy them.

Bottom line is something is going on. I don't know what, and I don't know who is to blame but we are getting screwed out of some really cool cars.

The days of the big three crushing all those that got in their way are long over. Heck, one of the big three is now owned by a German company.

When it comes right down to it the manufacturers were responding to consumer demand. In the 90’s and the beginning of this decade there was a big demand for trucks and SUV’s. Domestic AND foreign car companies responded to that demand by coming out with models of both. MB came out with their notoriously unreliable ML series of SUV’s. BMW has the X series. Even Toyota jumped into the fray with the Highlander and Sequoia. So I guess we all need to look in the mirror before we start blaming the UAW, oil companies and manufactures.



I was picked up in a diesel R class Mercedes the other day and I did not know I was in a diesel till the driver told me and I look at the back model number to make sure he was not lying to me. The SUV was quite as any gasser, and when he nailed it, I got shoved back in my seat.


Look up the gas mileage of the cars that MB sells here in the states, or BMW for that matter. It’s nothing to write home about. Are you going to try and tell me it's the work of the UAW, GM, Ford or big oil?
 
I was quite a bit younger back then and he was also my dad. Not like I could tell him to sell the car because it was a gas guzzler. I pointed it out once or twice but got shut down in short order.

Odd? Perhaps. If you look at the JD power ratings and from talking with various mechanics, starting in the mid to late 90’s the Europeans started developing cars to meet certain price points where as before they would design and build a car and slap the price on it. The cars built the ’old’ way tended to be far more reliable than the current slew. That along with the fact that they are putting so many bells and whistles on them that stuff us bound to go wrong.

Perhaps I should define performance the way I look at it. I’m not looking for a mid size 5 door with a diesel to out perform a Porche or Vet Z06. The little Opel Astra I had in Europe last summer was a neat little car. If had a firm suspension, felt safe at speed (maxed it out at 110 down hill with a tail wind lol), bolstered seats, decent pickup if you kept it between 3 and 4 grand, and excellent handling for a 5 door. No, not a Porch or a Vet but a fun car none the less.

I guess I should have prefaced this whole thread by admitting that I am a bit of a car nut/snob or what ever you want to call it. Show me a 427 vet, or a early model cammaro, a hemi Cuda, 300sl Gullwing, 930 Turbo, anything with a prancing horse or a charging bull (you get the idea) and I’d be a happy happy boy. When I look at my bank statement things change. I’ll take that Opel Astra or something similar (just want the engine pointing the correct direction and driving the proper wheels) and I’ll be happy as well. Not as happy, but I’ll live.

I agree with your last statement, we definitely bare most of the blame. The only question I have is what I asked in the beginning, out of the 113 cars offered, are the manufactures trying to tell me that only 2 meet US needs? If the cars were offered here, they might not be a stampede to the dealer right now but wait till gas hits $4 a gallon, then watch what happens.
 
II guess I should have prefaced this whole thread by admitting that I am a bit of a car nut/snob or what ever you want to call it. Show me a 427 vet, or a early model cammaro, a hemi Cuda, 300sl Gullwing, 930 Turbo, anything with a prancing horse or a charging bull (you get the idea) and I’d be a happy happy boy. When I look at my bank statement things change. I’ll take that Opel Astra or something similar (just want the engine pointing the correct direction and driving the proper wheels) and I’ll be happy as well. Not as happy, but I’ll live.

I agree with your last statement, we definitely bare most of the blame. The only question I have is what I asked in the beginning, out of the 113 cars offered, are the manufactures trying to tell me that only 2 meet US needs? If the cars were offered here, they might not be a stampede to the dealer right now but wait till gas hits $4 a gallon, then watch what happens.

Why are the cars not offered? Like you said gas is not up to $4 a gallon levels. If gas were to get that high then I think you might see those cars start to appear at dealerships. However, at the present moment a lot of people are not willing to pay the price difference between a standard vehicle and a hybrid. The Honda Accord is listed at $18000, the Accord Hybrid at $31000. It's not worth the price difference between the two for most people to get the Hybrid. Especailly for people like me who already own their car.

Like I said before it's not the case of some vast conspiracy to keep super efficent vehicles off US roads. It's a case of manfuacturers responding to the US marketplace. There was nothing to stop forign manufactuers from sending their more fuel efficent vehicles over here. However look what they did end up doing. In the case of MB and BMW they both came up with their own line of SUV's to sell here in the states. Why, becasue they knew there was money to be made.
 
Prius Outdoes Hummer in Environmental Damage
“… Through a study by CNW Marketing called “Dust to Dust,â€￾ the total combined energy is taken from all the electrical, fuel, transportation, materials (metal, plastic, etc) and hundreds of other factors over the expected lifetime of a vehicle. The Prius costs an average of $3.25 per mile driven over a lifetime of 100,000 miles - the expected lifespan of the Hybrid.

The Hummer, on the other hand, costs a more fiscal $1.95 per mile to put on the road over an expected lifetime of 300,000 miles. That means the Hummer will last three times longer than a Prius and use less combined energy doing it. ..â€￾

The rest of the story: http://clubs.ccsu.edu/recorder/editorial/e....asp?NewsID=188
 
Prius Outdoes Hummer in Environmental Damage
“… Through a study by CNW Marketing called “Dust to Dust,â€￾ the total combined energy is taken from all the electrical, fuel, transportation, materials (metal, plastic, etc) and hundreds of other factors over the expected lifetime of a vehicle. The Prius costs an average of $3.25 per mile driven over a lifetime of 100,000 miles - the expected lifespan of the Hybrid.

The Hummer, on the other hand, costs a more fiscal $1.95 per mile to put on the road over an expected lifetime of 300,000 miles. That means the Hummer will last three times longer than a Prius and use less combined energy doing it. ..â€￾

The rest of the story: http://clubs.ccsu.edu/recorder/editorial/e....asp?NewsID=188
Oh crap...you mean I'm 1/3 of the way thru my Prius's life span? It's also interesting to note that the report you cite was updated March 29 2007. But they had an Excel Spreadsheet that was posted one day later...and it showed that apparently they were using 2005 numbers in their report - but the change in costs from 2005 to 2006 is listed in the spreadsheet. In that, the costs for the Prius DROPPED by almost 15% while the costs for the H3 were up a little over 6% and the costs for the H2 were up by 14.48%.
 
Prius Outdoes Hummer in Environmental Damage
Wrong.

The Myth that the Prius Outdoes Hummer In Environmental Damage

Excerpts:

The "Dust-to-dust" study is from a marketing firm (CNW marketing), not a science journal. Basically, the study arrives at an artificially high cost for the Prius by assigning it an arbitrary lifespan of 100k miles, and a Hummer 300k miles. There's Prius being used as cabs that have 200k on them now. And, insofar as a car lasting, what car do should one expect to repair less? A Toyota Prius or a GM Hummer? You can check Consumer Reports for the answer to that one.

Toyota Prius batteries created a toxic wasteland in Sudbury, Canada
The Sudbury info is seriously outdated, and Demorro's comment about moon buggies (like, when did Nasa test moon buggies — early 1970’s) ought to have given him a clue. Sudbury was polluted by a century of mining (1870 on). In fact, some of Sudbury’s nickel went into making the Statue of Liberty. Currently, the mine is owned by INCO (not Toyota), and produces 100,000 tons of nickel a year, of which Toyota buys 1% (1000 tons). Blaming Toyota for the pollution at Sudbury is ludicrous. Nickel, by the way, is primarily used to make stainless steel.

Furthermore, Sudbury is no longer this polluted, as INCO and the city have planted over 8 million trees there since 1979. A really good history online of the Sudbury devastation/reforestation comes from GM Canada -- that's GM, maker of the Hummer, ahem, writing about how Sudbury was polluted and how it has come back.
 

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