214 Co-jo On Here?

[R22Captain]

was there someone on here who worked as a 214 co-jo this past summer? I remmeber reading a post somewhere that he had left a message on but can't find it now! If you could PM me that wouold be great! 😀

 

[HBG]

Hey R22, not sure what kind of info you are looking for about 214 co-joing but if it helps I started out as seat meat on the big bad bell some 10years ago. Very exciting work, sometimes not in a good way either. All in all though it was a great stepping stone into the industry for me. It taught me the difference between a smooth pilot and the hitting the stops kind. You get to fly with high time guys who are a book knowledge when it comes to the industry and flying. A lot of great information, some bad, just have to weed out the bad info using your own common sense and asking different people the same questions. After you get over the air sickness your off to the races, it took me about a week in the bag, but persistence paid off. Now I am blessed with flying the 214's little brother. Just a note though, its not something you want to do for along time but it beats pounding the pavement, at least your in the air getting some kind of hours. Hope this helps.

HBG

 

[R22Captain]

it does indeed. is there a busy time for logging? I'm assuming spring into summer but I'm from the other coast so not 100% familiar with the busy seasons for logging. I have a good idea of the comapnies to look into but if andone has any personal favorites I would love to hear about them,

 

[HBG]

The logging season can run as long as the wood isn't under 5 feet of snow. There is usually a lull in the action around mid to late Dec. to late March for the 214's because they usually log interior B.C. wood where the snow can be abundant, not the big coastal stuff where the 107 and Chinook wood is. That said a few phone calls will answer your question exactly. As far as the companies go, any one operating a 214 in western Canada will usually use low time co-jo's. Good luck.

 

[Skidz]

I've heard co-joing is pretty rough on the body. What kind of hours does one do ? Is there any kind of money in it ?

 

[R22Captain]

are there other companies other then the 214 operators that hire low timers for sandbaggin?

 

[picapart]

Iv'e been an engineer at Transwest for 5 years now and i have seen alot of cojo's come and go. This year was a real good year for our co-pilots getting jobs. Five of them went off to jobs this year. They were all at transwest for about a year in average. Usually the average is 2 or 3 a year.
I will admit the thrill of logging wears off in about a week or two, definatly after the first paycheck. I can't speak for all the co-pilots, but the one's who do move on won't say there time at transwest was a waste of time. They did learn alot starting with basic hands on flying from 10,000 hour long line pilots.
I've also noticed, which school you come from dosen't really matter. It all depends on the student. I tend to believe flying is in your blood and if can survive transwest you'll most likely do all right.

 

[Zazu]

Regards to all "meats of seat " and the "repairmen" that had to babysit them!

Was a hooker for way to many years before I got my licence, so for me getting in the seat and looking down was great! The money sucks though, and as such I used to just get out and log to make ends meet. As a result of my history I happened to get along well for the most part with both engineers and pilots.

Advice: Engineers can be tough to deal with as alot of them (surprisingly!) like to ferry... that is your time brother, fight for it. That said most of them have spent years on 206 and what have you, so use it! If you go into it with the attitude that it's a paid field education (albeit small) it will save your ass in the bush later on.

Advice: Pilots that log are exactly that... pilots that log. They have a tremendous amount of experience but when they do what they do none of it apply's to your near future as a pilot. If you get a job, and depending on the pilot you can learn alot. 1. The power is incredible, and while it's great for "gun runs" always get your captain to power limit all your take offs. Combine that with the 30 feet of tailboom and it makes confined space in a 206 a snap.
2. Get your endorsement! Period. You are doing all the power checks daily and the POH is in your briefcase so study and learn it. You do have a responsible job so take it seriously. The numbers don't lie...100% is 100%. It gets tough in there sometimes but believe me everyone will take you more seriously if you object ( sometimes very adamently ) according to the numbers and it will make you a friend in the engineer..revert to above. If you get the endorsement make sure that your time is SIGNED OFF, in your log book by the chief pilot.
3. Kind of reverts back to '2' but if you look in the OPs book and read closely you are only valid for 120, unless you get your endorsement. It is after all a 2 pilot machine and you ain't no pilot without the paper man. They all do things the PCC way so shoot high autos, governor failures, whatever on the ferry flights. the total time will help later in life.
4. The pilots and engineers buy all the time. No exceptions. Your licence is probably on lien from the bank so don't dither. If you end up helping the engineer your duty day is shot so, like I said, they buy.
5. No exceptions on weight. It gets very hairy up there when the hook fails, revert to 2. Learn to fix that hook. All else fails, phone the manufacturer(probably Can-Am) You are there mostly for the ride and hopefully learn something, might as well start your PDM skills early with a 10000 hr driver over your shoulder, he will after all be your worst customer ever....I promise.

Regards,


Zazu

 

[twinstar_ca]

lots of good advice there, zazu...

 

[Zazu]

HBG,

As an aside, I will tell you that if the wood price is right the company will log with 5 ft of snow over the wood. And if you have been doing this for a number of years odds are that you have (literaly) seen me "head down, ass up" with just my feet pokin' up through the snow looking for that infamous "choker hole"...get a bucket of them doozies and I will personally buy you a beer!

Be nice to your cojo
Regards

Zazu

 

[R22Captain]

hey zazu and HBG.
Who have you/are you working for? PM if you prefer. Thanks :hide:

 

[Zazu]

R-22

worked for Trans - West the day I passed my written, must be 7 years ago or somewhat. Been working for Gemini Helicopters for 3 seasons now. You do the math in between. Ups and downs a given but all smiles now

Zazu

 

[Rotorboy2]

R22,

Zazu and I both worked at Transwest during the same time period as co-jos. He mentions some very good points but I'd like to re-iterate a few myself:

1) If you get hired, understand one thing: you are a co-pilot. You will NEVER be pulling turns off the hill from the left seat (or the right for that fact). One guy who was trying out as co-jo actually asked when he was going to get to 'try long-lining'... he didn't last.

2) The pay is shite. Every 214 logging operator knows there are dozens of guys waiting to jump in the right seat for some experience. The pay reflects that. You will work long, hard hours for very little pay. Be prepared to be eating the 'cheap' macaroni and cheese (and no wieners either) for a long time.

3) There are great captains and not-so-great captains. Some guys are great instructors and make great efforts to help the newbie co-jo out while other guys just yell at you. Don't take it personally.

4) Keep in mind that your 214 time really doesn't mean jack if you don't have the endorsement. Some of that time can be counted as 'training' and therefore can be counted against your total time. Most operators won't recognize that time, however.

Overall, I am glad I went the 'co-jo' route but if I had to do it over, I'd probably try other avenues. It did give me a fair bit of stick time and did allow me to hone my skills somewhat but it is alot (I mean ALOT) of work, little pay and a hard slog.

Good luck!

 

[Skidz]

Could some of you guys de-mystify the co-jo's role in heli-logging ?

My understanding was the co-jo's primary role was to keep his face on the guages while the captain has his head out the window and to let him know if he's close to or over-torquing or over-temping.

I assume all the other #### work goes to the co-jo as well (fuelling, laying out lines, etc.).

Could you give an example of "a day in the life of a co-jo" ?

Rotorboy, you say that without the endorsement, co-joing on the 214 is worthless in the end. Could you clarify that ?

Thanks !

 

[Rotorboy2]

Skidz,

You are primarily correct regarding the co-jo's role. Usually the co-jo holds the collective at 100% torque (or equivilant), not just watching the torque gauge. The captain pulls power and the co-jo applies resistance as the torque approaches the top end. The co-jo also records the weights of the turns and records if chokers were taken up on the empty run back up the hill (if no support machine is used).

Fueling and such is the co-jo's responsibility as well. In addition, many times the co-jo must also assist the engineer at the end of the day (because bouncing around for 8 hours isn't enough). The pilot and co-jo usually washed the tailboom every day, but the windows, interior and greasing was usually the co-jo's job.

Let's make one thing clear...
The only reason a second pilot is in a machine such as the 214 on logging operations is for insurance purposes only... someone must be watching the gauges at all times. The company is not concerned with 'training up' low time pilots for future transition to the left seat... that simply doesn't happen.

The positive side is that the co-jo usually gets the ferry flights. This means both the short 5-10 minute hops to and from the jobsite everyday as well as the longer flights to and from the hanger. This is where the co-jo can build hours.

But no, if you are not endorsed on type, you cannot officially log the time. I believe it is the same for any helicopter type... and the heli-logging operations know this. They do not hand out endorsements when you walk in the door. One guy I worked with was there almost 3 years before finally getting the endorsement... and the ink wasn't even dry before he quit and got a 'real job' flying a JetRanger.

Now without the endorsement you can count some of the time as training but there is a maximum to that as well. Unfortunately, I've spoken to various people, including TC personnel, and no one seems to have a definitive answer.

I wouldn't say that the time a co-jo spends in the cockpit is 'worthless'... quite the opposite. I learned alot about flying, especially in poor weather, from my time as a co-jo. I also got a fair bit of x-country time, including trip planning and fuel stops. I also gained alot of experience in radio operations and learned about fire fighting procedures while we were fighting fires.

I just want to make clear that if a low-timer expects he/she can log all their time as a co-jo as official time, then that is incorrect. I made that mistake... and I was none-too-happy when I was told that the majority of that time was not loggable.