407's

[TDK]

https://www.nasdac.faa.gov/pls/nasdac/!...p_module.accept

 

[407 Driver]

407's, they fall from the sky TOO

TDK, what's your point?
Who said and where was it said that 407's DON'T fall from the sky?

If you're referring to my question to MAG about the reason for an Astar B3 on it's side on the Mesa AZ airport, a result of an apparent HYD failure, where exactly did I say that 407's are the safest type on earth. If and when a 407 tips over, falls apart, or flies a full load into the Grand Canyon Wall, perhaps we can discuss the situation then?

The question at hand is why this Native Air aircraft lost control. I'm fairly interested in MAG's opinion, as any HYD failure that I've experienced in a 350 has not been that big of a deal.

 

[downwash]

And besides, there's not enough open ground left for 407s to touch down with the litter of fallen Stars covering the continent. 🙄 😀

 

[407 Driver]

Now Now Downwash, don't be egging the Astar boys on, or this may erupt into a full on 350 Vs 407 posting war again......and remember guys ...I NEVER started this one (or did I? 😀 😉 )

 

[MagSeal]

407 and I playfully tease each other. We both know each aircraft isn't immune from problems.
I can see TDK's point to a degree though, I peruse through accident reports quite a bit and I notice many Bell accidents but it's the A-Star ones that seem to bring up the most attention here. (Is it because of the recent accident where there hasn't been a verdict yet on the cause, coupled with a recent ASB?) I think it's gotten lots of guys on edge.
I see alot of servo's come thru the doors here for O/H and repair, and judging from some of the defects noted, yes...guys are a bit nervous.
Both types of servo's seem to be questioned by guys in the field.

And please, the media is a good outlet to know what happened, but how it happened isn't their ballgame. Take the initial reports with a grain of salt.

 

[MagSeal]

here's the initial NTSB report on the grande canyon accident for those interested...
(hope it works)


http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=2...001X01630&key=1

 

[MagSeal]

Here's more on the Grande Canyon crash...

Grand Canyon helicopter crash probe looking at pilot performance
20031002; AP Worldstream

AP Worldstream 10-02-2003 Dateline: LAS VEGAS Investigators are focusing on pilot performance after finding no evidence of engine failure or rotor problems in a helicopter which crashed in the Grand Canyon last month, killing seven. The tour helicopter carrying a Japanese pilot and six passengers _ including two from Japan and two from Germany _ crashed and burst into flames about 80 kilometers (50 miles) northeast of Kingman in Descent Canyon on Sept. 20. Wayne Pollack, the National Transportation Safety Board official heading the inquiry, said people familiar with the flyi...

there was more to the story, but I think enough was said here....

 

[downwash]

Yeah, I know, 407. And Mag, apologies. Sometimes I just can't resist temptation. :wacko: B)

 

[highbladedown]

At least there is not a new AD coming out every week on the 407's like there is on the 350's. If some of you are old enough to remember there were problems with the 206A model when it first came out in 67, the so called blue ribbon C-18 engine was falling apart, the C-28 when it came out in the L1 became known as the hand grenade and the Astars when they came out were know as the falling star. The company I worked for in the 80's lost 2 AS 350's in 3 days with the LTS 101 engine.
All aircraft have their share problems.........problems are only magnified when you are either a Eurocopter or Bell supported, then the other is flying junk. Personally I like the 47G4A........

 

[twinstar_ca]

in defence of the 350 (sorry, 407D), it had a much better record once the 101 was replaced..

 

[MagSeal]

here's the TSB report on the Mesa accident....

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=2...112X01883&key=1

 

[twinstar_ca]

thanks for the link, magseal, but now i'm a little confused... says he deactivated the hydraulics but would that cause the yaw?? i thought it would just make the pedals harder to push... :blink:

also, if he was spinning, would he not have wanted to take the power off and minimize torque?? i thought one of the reasons EC went to collective mounted throttles was for that exact reason... or was this machine built before that option??

:huh:

 

[N.O.E.]

If the hydraulics are swithched off at a high rate of speed say 90 to 100+ knots the astar will have a tendency to roll, much more than a bell product. This is possibly mistaken for the yaw? I didn't catch where the yaw came into the conversation. The Astar also has that crappy servo system that we're all agreed on is a joke and a bad one at that. Also an astar with out the cheeks sucks just as bad as 206 and with the cheeks is slower than 47G!! One question for 407, since it sounds like you lots of experience with both aircraft: what is a better vision machine in poor weather conditions. Ie fog, slow speed and wet passengers and cool outside temperatures?

 

[Nomex]

Jumping in ahead of 407D's reply....

Astars are not as good in precip - drizzle, fog, light rain, as the shape of the windscreen doesn't allow the moisture to run off as well as the 206/407. probably a reason why Astars are designed to be equipped with wipers - unfortunately they don't have glass screens so very few are equipped other than a few corporate machines, otherwise one swipe on a dry dirty window ruins your whole day.

 

[407 Driver]

Damn it Nomex, I'm the one that should be running down Astars ! Here you jump in and steal my thunder, 😀 😉 . Correct on all counts, they just don't clear rain and snow very well. I recall some very scary moments when we skiied with those old BA's......couldn't see anything outside, and the only info inside was the NG guage increasing through xxx% and the A/S indicator working like an altimeter since the belly mounted pitot tube was always frozen.....These memories are going to set my therapy back a few months ....
I saw wiper posts on a lot of Astars, but never ever saw a wiper blade. It would wreck a windscreen in a few swipes anyway.

The Native Air B3 that rolled up was said to be "much more difficult" to control W/O HYD assist than other Astars? that report came from a US pilot that flew that aircraft for 6 months...... What was going on iside that set of servo's??????