A Bad Experiment

[Veritas]

It ain't gonna happen.

Humpty Dumpty sat on a wall;
Humpty Dumpty had a great fall.
All the King's horses
And all the King's men
Couldn't put Humpty together again!

 

[MCI transplant]

<_< ------- I believe, in the not too distant future, that there will be some sort of re-regulation in this industry. Although not quit yet! It will take a real eye opener event to trigger it! Something on the order of Delta, and, or Northwest, going back into bankruptcy, and this time Chapter.7! ------ Far fetched? Oh I don't know! Did you note that their combined loose for the first quarter was 10 Billion$$$!!!? And with the price of fuel continually going higher, there will be more Airlines falling out of the sky!------ Oh, they won't call it "re-regulation"! And it won't be the same as before, but they'll have to do something, or this whole Industry will be grounded! ----- And! A foot note here! ----- Be careful of what you wish for!!!!!

 

[Hopeful]

<_< ------- I believe, in the not too distant future, that there will be some sort of re-regulation in this industry. Although not quit yet! It will take a real eye opener event to trigger it! Something on the order of Delta, and, or Northwest, going back into bankruptcy, and this time Chapter.7! ------ Far fetched? Oh I don't know! Did you note that their combined loose for the first quarter was 10 Billion$$$!!!? And with the price of fuel continually going higher, there will be more Airlines falling out of the sky!------ Oh, they won't call it "re-regulation"! And it won't be the same as before, but they'll have to do something, or this whole Industry will be grounded! ----- And! A foot note here! ----- Be careful of what you wish for!!!!!

Eventually, the losses by the airlines will be so great, not even raping the employees any further can save them....

 

[flyastrojets]

Check this one out from Bob Crandall on Lou Dobbs.

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/bestoftv/...ref=videosearch

I know a number of employees, especially the pilots, wanted him run out on a rail when he was around. But I do miss him sometimes even now, and I no longer even work for AA.

As to the original post. I voted "No" for re-regulation, or at least pre 1978 style regulation where the CAB was regulating sandwich thickness. I certainly think the government needs to be involved, and a good first place to start would be to allow failed carriers to actually go out of business. Next, if government intends to remain in the air traffic control business, government (Congress) needs to decide how we are going to fund NextGen and get on with it. Third, policy makers need to get off their duffs and at least begin to talk about a national transportation policy. Sitting here in the center of it all in our beloved nation's capitol, I never cease to be amazed that our country lacks a national vision for transportation. The Executive Branch can't think beyond the "market based initiative" of the moment and the Legislative Branch can't imagine anything but b*tching about the Executive Branch and its lack of ideas while offering no real alternative. So here we sit.....delayed on a dirty airplane with no clearance to take off in sight.

 

[whlinder]

Deregulation was suppose to benefit the flying public. It did for a while but unfortunately the negative side of human nature quickly reared it's ughly head and airlines started to pop up all over the place. In a mad dash to make a buck management people, who did not know anything about running an airline, started cutting corners where ever possible to increase their profits. Their blind lust for every cent found and pocketed has lead to the "Follow me off the cliff" mentality. The worse example of this mentality is the outsourcing of aircraft maintenance.

Profits? What profits? When did those ever occur with any regularity? Airline management should be chasing every last penny when they aren't making very many.

I also don't understand how the worst example of this mentality is the outsourcing of maintenance. Why? You state a conclusion with no arguments for it. I might agree with it, if I knew you felt that way.

But even with the industry cutting their own throats airlines had the saving grace of filing for bankruptcy protection. When will the public finally realize that GREED will never allow deregulation to work and demand that the airlines be re-regulated?

When the public either starts perishing at an alarming rate from aircraft disasters or gets really mad that their fares are expensive. With accident rates seemingly lower than ever despite factors that should lead to an increase in accidents deteriorating (aging planes, ATC under capacity, supposedly maintenance standards declining) fares are going to have to be the game changer. Which means until the public gets mad about the prices Southwest charges the public will not care.

I say that the US Government should re-regulate the airlines. They should stipulate that ALL aircraft maintenance is done in house. The government should also sell fuel to the airlines at a fixed rate. With the US Government's power they can buy fuel in such large amounts that the government could earn money from the sale of fuel. That way fuel will cost everyone the same and quality and safety will be a deciding factor when the public buys a ticket. It worked before it will work again.

Stop the madness... re-regulate the airlines. If an airline fails then they should CEASE operations.

I agree that airlines (and all companies) that fail should shut down instead of dragging their industries down thanks to bankruptcy. However, the government at this point in time seems to think airlines exist to provide low cost transportation to the masses. Oh the government and citizens will whine and moan about service but all they really care about is fares. Airlines dare not merge because that might make fares go up! How dare they make money? Who do they think they are, trying to cover their costs? I hate that attitude and it has to change, but increasing regulation is not the answer there. What has to happen is carriers be allowed to fail and the strong ones survive, making healthy profits. If we only have 3 carriers and BF Egypt doesn't have flights any, TFB. No congressional posturing over losing all those jobs at the airline's HQ because it went bankrupt. It can't make money, shut it down. Let the winners figure out which of its routes were winners and operate them. That's what the industry needs.

As an aside, why is outsourcing aircraft maintenance worse than anything else that gets outsourced in the airline industry? I mean if the construction of the airplane in the first place can be outsourced, why can't the maintenance on it?

 

[MCI transplant]

Profits? What profits? When did those ever occur with any regularity? Airline management should be chasing every last penny when they aren't making very many.

I also don't understand how the worst example of this mentality is the outsourcing of maintenance. Why? You state a conclusion with no arguments for it. I might agree with it, if I knew you felt that way.

When the public either starts perishing at an alarming rate from aircraft disasters or gets really mad that their fares are expensive. With accident rates seemingly lower than ever despite factors that should lead to an increase in accidents deteriorating (aging planes, ATC under capacity, supposedly maintenance standards declining) fares are going to have to be the game changer. Which means until the public gets mad about the prices Southwest charges the public will not care.


I agree that airlines (and all companies) that fail should shut down instead of dragging their industries down thanks to bankruptcy. However, the government at this point in time seems to think airlines exist to provide low cost transportation to the masses. Oh the government and citizens will whine and moan about service but all they really care about is fares. Airlines dare not merge because that might make fares go up! How dare they make money? Who do they think they are, trying to cover their costs? I hate that attitude and it has to change, but increasing regulation is not the answer there. What has to happen is carriers be allowed to fail and the strong ones survive, making healthy profits. If we only have 3 carriers and BF Egypt doesn't have flights any, TFB. No congressional posturing over losing all those jobs at the airline's HQ because it went bankrupt. It can't make money, shut it down. Let the winners figure out which of its routes were winners and operate them. That's what the industry needs.

As an aside, why is outsourcing aircraft maintenance worse than anything else that gets outsourced in the airline industry? I mean if the construction of the airplane in the first place can be outsourced, why can't the maintenance on it?

<_< ------Obviously your not in this Industry! If you are, it's only in the capacity of the economics of it. This Industry, if you haven't figured it out yet, is more akin to that of the petroleum Industry. If it fails, which there is a good chance, at this rate, it may without intervention by the Government! We can all hange it up! It'll be over! This country, and it's economy, are all based on the free movement of it's people! We as employees of the Airline Industry can work for "NOTHING!!!!", and if the cost of fuel continues to climb, it will not matter!!! The Airlines will fail!!!! Now that's a fact!-------- Outsourcing! The sole purpose for it is "Cheap Labor"!!!! The same reason the Federal Government will "NOT" secure our boarders!!!! The big boys believe they have a "God given" right to access Cheap, Labor!!!! And if that Labor is illegal, so be it!!! Back to outsourcing. Outsourcing is a threat to the safety of the American flying public! The people who work on our Aircraft today, in foreign countrys, do so with little ,or no, oversight by FAA! Their Mechanics do not have to obied by the same safety standards as US AMTs! They do "NOT" have random drug testing, as required by US law! The foreign Companies do "NOT" have to do background checks on their employees! And do "NOT" have to be licensed to do their work! In Todays international environment, all of the above could be disastrous!!!! They make you take off your shoes when you try and enter an Airplane! Who's checking out the guy who is overhauling the Engine on that plane your about to fly on!!!?-------- Think about it!!!

 

[The Goose]

<_< ------Obviously your not in this Industry! If you are, it's only in the capacity of the economics of it. This Industry, if you haven't figured it out yet, is more akin to that of the petroleum Industry. If it fails, which there is a good chance, at this rate, it may without intervention by the Government! We can all hange it up! It'll be over! This country, and it's economy, are all based on the free movement of it's people! We as employees of the Airline Industry can work for "NOTHING!!!!", and if the cost of fuel continues to climb, it will not matter!!! The Airlines will fail!!!! Now that's a fact!-------- Outsourcing! The sole purpose for it is "Cheap Labor"!!!! The same reason the Federal Government will "NOT" secure our boarders!!!! The big boys believe they have a "God given" right to access Cheap, Labor!!!! And if that Labor is illegal, so be it!!! Back to outsourcing. Outsourcing is a threat to the safety of the American flying public! The people who work on our Aircraft today, in foreign countrys, do so with little ,or no, oversight by FAA! Their Mechanics do not have to obied by the same safety standards as US AMTs! They do "NOT" have random drug testing, as required by US law! The foreign Companies do "NOT" have to do background checks on their employees! And do "NOT" have to be licensed to do their work! In Todays international environment, all of the above could be disastrous!!!! They make you take off your shoes when you try and enter an Airplane! Who's checking out the guy who is overhauling the Engine on that plane your about to fly on!!!?-------- Think about it!!!

If the guy's name wasn't a sham,

W.H. Linder & Associates, Inc. provides multi-discipline engineering and design services to the offshore oil and gas production, petrochemicals and refining industries to major and independent E & P operators on the U.S. Gulf Coast, in West Africa, and in the Far East.

Seems to be another of GW's oil buddies.

 

[whatkindoffreshhell]

Profits? What profits? When did those ever occur with any regularity? Airline management should be chasing every last penny when they aren't making very many.

I also don't understand how the worst example of this mentality is the outsourcing of maintenance. Why? You state a conclusion with no arguments for it. I might agree with it, if I knew you felt that way.

When the public either starts perishing at an alarming rate from aircraft disasters or gets really mad that their fares are expensive. With accident rates seemingly lower than ever despite factors that should lead to an increase in accidents deteriorating (aging planes, ATC under capacity, supposedly maintenance standards declining) fares are going to have to be the game changer. Which means until the public gets mad about the prices Southwest charges the public will not care.


I agree that airlines (and all companies) that fail should shut down instead of dragging their industries down thanks to bankruptcy. However, the government at this point in time seems to think airlines exist to provide low cost transportation to the masses. Oh the government and citizens will whine and moan about service but all they really care about is fares. Airlines dare not merge because that might make fares go up! How dare they make money? Who do they think they are, trying to cover their costs? I hate that attitude and it has to change, but increasing regulation is not the answer there. What has to happen is carriers be allowed to fail and the strong ones survive, making healthy profits. If we only have 3 carriers and BF Egypt doesn't have flights any, TFB. No congressional posturing over losing all those jobs at the airline's HQ because it went bankrupt. It can't make money, shut it down. Let the winners figure out which of its routes were winners and operate them. That's what the industry needs.

As an aside, why is outsourcing aircraft maintenance worse than anything else that gets outsourced in the airline industry? I mean if the construction of the airplane in the first place can be outsourced, why can't the maintenance on it?

Whlinder is absolutely correct with this post.

Post-of-the-year!

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

Profits? What profits? When did those ever occur with any regularity? Airline management should be chasing every last penny when they aren't making very many.

I also don't understand how the worst example of this mentality is the outsourcing of maintenance. Why? You state a conclusion with no arguments for it. I might agree with it, if I knew you felt that way.

When the public either starts perishing at an alarming rate from aircraft disasters or gets really mad that their fares are expensive. With accident rates seemingly lower than ever despite factors that should lead to an increase in accidents deteriorating (aging planes, ATC under capacity, supposedly maintenance standards declining) fares are going to have to be the game changer. Which means until the public gets mad about the prices Southwest charges the public will not care.


I agree that airlines (and all companies) that fail should shut down instead of dragging their industries down thanks to bankruptcy. However, the government at this point in time seems to think airlines exist to provide low cost transportation to the masses. Oh the government and citizens will whine and moan about service but all they really care about is fares. Airlines dare not merge because that might make fares go up! How dare they make money? Who do they think they are, trying to cover their costs? I hate that attitude and it has to change, but increasing regulation is not the answer there. What has to happen is carriers be allowed to fail and the strong ones survive, making healthy profits. If we only have 3 carriers and BF Egypt doesn't have flights any, TFB. No congressional posturing over losing all those jobs at the airline's HQ because it went bankrupt. It can't make money, shut it down. Let the winners figure out which of its routes were winners and operate them. That's what the industry needs.

As an aside, why is outsourcing aircraft maintenance worse than anything else that gets outsourced in the airline industry? I mean if the construction of the airplane in the first place can be outsourced, why can't the maintenance on it?

wh,

" Airline management should be chasing every last penny when they aren't making very many."

Is that a fact? Even at the expense of the employees? And what, pray tell, is your opinion of management chasing every penny, ie. outsourcing maintenance, and then rewarding themselves with the pennies they saved?

"I also don't understand how the worst example of this mentality is the outsourcing of maintenance."

You don't see because you don't understand. As an AMT I am much closer to the ground than you are. AA remains the largest carrier doing the bulk of their maintenance in house. UAL and NWA send their work overseas to CHINA & SINGAPORE yet they still can not make a profit yet their management still get bonuses. You MIGHT save a penny in the short term by outsourcing this critical aspect of running an airline but it will cost DOLLARS, and lots of them, in the long term.

I believe the public cares but the public will react as you say, " When the public either starts perishing at an alarming rate from aircraft disasters...", I don't want to wait till even ONE person perishes!

The government, GW Bush, thinks airlines exhist only for cheap airfare because he is a POLITICIAN and NOT a STATESMAN! GW said this because he is for management and against labor. It will be up to Congress and the Senate to fix this industry and re-regulation is needed. Perhaps not a total re-regulation as MCI points out but some return to accountability and common sense business is needed. It certainly will not happen on its own.

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

Profits? What profits? When did those ever occur with any regularity? Airline management should be chasing every last penny when they aren't making very many.

I also don't understand how the worst example of this mentality is the outsourcing of maintenance. Why? You state a conclusion with no arguments for it. I might agree with it, if I knew you felt that way.

When the public either starts perishing at an alarming rate from aircraft disasters or gets really mad that their fares are expensive. With accident rates seemingly lower than ever despite factors that should lead to an increase in accidents deteriorating (aging planes, ATC under capacity, supposedly maintenance standards declining) fares are going to have to be the game changer. Which means until the public gets mad about the prices Southwest charges the public will not care.


I agree that airlines (and all companies) that fail should shut down instead of dragging their industries down thanks to bankruptcy. However, the government at this point in time seems to think airlines exist to provide low cost transportation to the masses. Oh the government and citizens will whine and moan about service but all they really care about is fares. Airlines dare not merge because that might make fares go up! How dare they make money? Who do they think they are, trying to cover their costs? I hate that attitude and it has to change, but increasing regulation is not the answer there. What has to happen is carriers be allowed to fail and the strong ones survive, making healthy profits. If we only have 3 carriers and BF Egypt doesn't have flights any, TFB. No congressional posturing over losing all those jobs at the airline's HQ because it went bankrupt. It can't make money, shut it down. Let the winners figure out which of its routes were winners and operate them. That's what the industry needs.

As an aside, why is outsourcing aircraft maintenance worse than anything else that gets outsourced in the airline industry? I mean if the construction of the airplane in the first place can be outsourced, why can't the maintenance on it?

wh,

" Airline management should be chasing every last penny when they aren't making very many."

Is that a fact? Even at the expense of the employees? And what, pray tell, is your opinion of management chasing every penny, ie. outsourcing maintenance, and then rewarding themselves with the pennies they saved?

"I also don't understand how the worst example of this mentality is the outsourcing of maintenance."

You don't see because you don't understand. As an AMT I am much closer to the ground than you are. AA remains the largest carrier doing the bulk of their maintenance in house. UAL and NWA send their work overseas to CHINA & SINGAPORE yet they still can not make a profit yet their management still get bonuses. You MIGHT save a penny in the short term by outsourcing this critical aspect of running an airline but it will cost DOLLARS, and lots of them, in the long term.

I believe the public cares but the public will react as you say, " When the public either starts perishing at an alarming rate from aircraft disasters...", I don't want to wait till even ONE person perishes!

The government, GW Bush, thinks airlines exhist only for cheap airfare because he is a POLITICIAN and NOT a STATESMAN! GW said this because he is for management and against labor. It will be up to Congress and the Senate to fix this industry and re-regulation is needed. Perhaps not a total re-regulation as MCI points out but some return to accountability and common sense business is needed. It certainly will not happen on its own.

 

[FWAAA]

Allow me to paraphrase and summarize the numerous points put forth by the OP. So the OP believes that:

1. Price competition is bad, not good;

2. Government should set prices for air travel;

3. Government should be become the sole fuel supplier to airlines;

4. Government should mandate that all aircraft maintenance be performed "in-house;"

5. Bankruptcy laws should mandate liquidation, not reorganization, for airline debtors; and

6. Congress and the President erred in 1978 in de-regulating air travel yet can now be trusted to competently manage a $100 billion industry.

I disagree with points number 1 and 2. Consumer choice, IMO, is paramount. Competition produces winners and losers and it appears that the OP is attempting to guarantee nothing but winners and prevent anyone from losing. Assigning Government (any government) that task is not what our country is all about.

I don't understand at all the OP's desire that the government become the sole provider of jetA. AMR is already the largest private purchaser of jetA in the world - 3 billion gallons a year - and it's not as though oil companies offer quantity discounts for even larger purchase volumes. What's next? Nationalizing the nation's gas stations? Should the government become the sole source of gasoline? No thanks.

The OP wants all aircraft maintenance performed in-house yet fails to differentiate between high quality outsourced maintenance and lower quality in-house repairs. Why not instead require that anyone who touches an airplane possess an A&P license? AA's in-house maintenance permits unlicensed individuals to repair airplanes under the watch of licensed mechanics. How's that really different form the major MROs?

I disagree that the bankruptcy laws should prohibit reorganization attempts of bankrupt debtors. I was in favor, however, of the shutdown of US and UA early on in their bankruptcies. Never before have I seen such vitriol from other posters. I was blasted for wishing people "out of work." Interesting how many posters on this thread now advocate the liquidation of the weak - in effect, expressing a desire that the "evil capitalist system" put poorly managed competitors out of their misery.

I disagree that Congress and Pres Carter erred in 1978. Regulation of air travel was the failed experiment and Congress and the President were brave enough to admit the mistake. Look at the meteoric growth of air travel in the 30 years since then. Numerous airlines have been started and, of course, most have failed. Most business startups fail. Some have grown substantially in those 30 years. Crappy old PeoplExpress, Frontier, Texas Air and tiny Continental were combined and have become a well-respected airline. The masses can now afford to fly, something not true in 1978.

The root of the OP's complaints is that his wages have stagnated. They haven't continued on an unbroken upward trajectory since he became a licensed A&P mechanic. Five years ago, his wages and benefits were slashed. Contrary to his indoctrination, his union didn't have the power to prevent those wage cuts and, to his dismay, may have even helped the company force the paycuts on him and his colleagues. I disagree that the OP's proposed solutions will cause his pay to rise to levels he deems sufficient.

I'm not sure I understand the link between the OP's wages and his desire that government "make it all better." Entrepreneurship is celebrated in this country. Jobs and Wozniak. Gates and Allen. Hewlett and Packard. Michael Dell. Page and Brin. Could any of them have accomplished what they did if they'd have been required to submit their plans to some government agency? If a government agency had set their prices? Scary.

I don't trust Representatives or Senators or their quasi-government agencies to competently micro-manage anything, let alone airlines. I don't trust Sen Obama, Clinton, McCain or Kennedy to make those decisions. I don't trust Pres Bush or his successors to make those decisions. The OP clearly disagrees. The OP shows his disdain for the current President and claims that Congress would have to step up to fix things. What if the Republicans retake control of Congress? What then? Think they care about labor? For that matter, do you really think Clinton or Obama care about labor? If so, then it's time for a random test. Labor's biggest problem is that neither Democrats or Republicans can be counted on to give a damn. Re-regulating airlines won't change that, despite the OP's protestations.

 

[tech2101]

Allow me to paraphrase and summarize the numerous points put forth by the OP. So the OP believes that:

1. Price competition is bad, not good;

2. Government should set prices for air travel;

3. Government should be become the sole fuel supplier to airlines;

4. Government should mandate that all aircraft maintenance be performed "in-house;"

5. Bankruptcy laws should mandate liquidation, not reorganization, for airline debtors; and

6. Congress and the President erred in 1978 in de-regulating air travel yet can now be trusted to competently manage a $100 billion industry.

I disagree with points number 1 and 2. Consumer choice, IMO, is paramount. Competition produces winners and losers and it appears that the OP is attempting to guarantee nothing but winners and prevent anyone from losing. Assigning Government (any government) that task is not what our country is all about.

I don't understand at all the OP's desire that the government become the sole provider of jetA. AMR is already the largest private purchaser of jetA in the world - 3 billion gallons a year - and it's not as though oil companies offer quantity discounts for even larger purchase volumes. What's next? Nationalizing the nation's gas stations? Should the government become the sole source of gasoline? No thanks.

The OP wants all aircraft maintenance performed in-house yet fails to differentiate between high quality outsourced maintenance and lower quality in-house repairs. Why not instead require that anyone who touches an airplane possess an A&P license? AA's in-house maintenance permits unlicensed individuals to repair airplanes under the watch of licensed mechanics. How's that really different form the major MROs?

I disagree that the bankruptcy laws should prohibit reorganization attempts of bankrupt debtors. I was in favor, however, of the shutdown of US and UA early on in their bankruptcies. Never before have I seen such vitriol from other posters. I was blasted for wishing people "out of work." Interesting how many posters on this thread now advocate the liquidation of the weak - in effect, expressing a desire that the "evil capitalist system" put poorly managed competitors out of their misery.

I disagree that Congress and Pres Carter erred in 1978. Regulation of air travel was the failed experiment and Congress and the President were brave enough to admit the mistake. Look at the meteoric growth of air travel in the 30 years since then. Numerous airlines have been started and, of course, most have failed. Most business startups fail. Some have grown substantially in those 30 years. Crappy old PeoplExpress, Frontier, Texas Air and tiny Continental were combined and have become a well-respected airline. The masses can now afford to fly, something not true in 1978.

The root of the OP's complaints is that his wages have stagnated. They haven't continued on an unbroken upward trajectory since he became a licensed A&P mechanic. Five years ago, his wages and benefits were slashed. Contrary to his indoctrination, his union didn't have the power to prevent those wage cuts and, to his dismay, may have even helped the company force the paycuts on him and his colleagues. I disagree that the OP's proposed solutions will cause his pay to rise to levels he deems sufficient.

I'm not sure I understand the link between the OP's wages and his desire that government "make it all better." Entrepreneurship is celebrated in this country. Jobs and Wozniak. Gates and Allen. Hewlett and Packard. Michael Dell. Page and Brin. Could any of them have accomplished what they did if they'd have been required to submit their plans to some government agency? If a government agency had set their prices? Scary.

I don't trust Representatives or Senators or their quasi-government agencies to competently micro-manage anything, let alone airlines. I don't trust Sen Obama, Clinton, McCain or Kennedy to make those decisions. I don't trust Pres Bush or his successors to make those decisions. The OP clearly disagrees. The OP shows his disdain for the current President and claims that Congress would have to step up to fix things. What if the Republicans retake control of Congress? What then? Think they care about labor? For that matter, do you really think Clinton or Obama care about labor? If so, then it's time for a random test. Labor's biggest problem is that neither Democrats or Republicans can be counted on to give a damn. Re-regulating airlines won't change that, despite the OP's protestations.

An excellent, well thought out post.

The thing you failed to mention in your post is how the BOD's and executives are compensated for running bad businesses with bad models.

We have a system where airlines can collude on pricing, yet they fail to price their product to gain profits.

How is it that UPS and FEDEX can fly a package from point A to point B and make it profitable?

I know that is a simplistic retort, but a valid one.

 

[MCI transplant]

Allow me to paraphrase and summarize the numerous points put forth by the OP. So the OP believes that:

1. Price competition is bad, not good;

2. Government should set prices for air travel;

3. Government should be become the sole fuel supplier to airlines;

4. Government should mandate that all aircraft maintenance be performed "in-house;"

5. Bankruptcy laws should mandate liquidation, not reorganization, for airline debtors; and

6. Congress and the President erred in 1978 in de-regulating air travel yet can now be trusted to competently manage a $100 billion industry.

I disagree with points number 1 and 2. Consumer choice, IMO, is paramount. Competition produces winners and losers and it appears that the OP is attempting to guarantee nothing but winners and prevent anyone from losing. Assigning Government (any government) that task is not what our country is all about.

I don't understand at all the OP's desire that the government become the sole provider of jetA. AMR is already the largest private purchaser of jetA in the world - 3 billion gallons a year - and it's not as though oil companies offer quantity discounts for even larger purchase volumes. What's next? Nationalizing the nation's gas stations? Should the government become the sole source of gasoline? No thanks.

The OP wants all aircraft maintenance performed in-house yet fails to differentiate between high quality outsourced maintenance and lower quality in-house repairs. Why not instead require that anyone who touches an airplane possess an A&P license? AA's in-house maintenance permits unlicensed individuals to repair airplanes under the watch of licensed mechanics. How's that really different form the major MROs?

I disagree that the bankruptcy laws should prohibit reorganization attempts of bankrupt debtors. I was in favor, however, of the shutdown of US and UA early on in their bankruptcies. Never before have I seen such vitriol from other posters. I was blasted for wishing people "out of work." Interesting how many posters on this thread now advocate the liquidation of the weak - in effect, expressing a desire that the "evil capitalist system" put poorly managed competitors out of their misery.

I disagree that Congress and Pres Carter erred in 1978. Regulation of air travel was the failed experiment and Congress and the President were brave enough to admit the mistake. Look at the meteoric growth of air travel in the 30 years since then. Numerous airlines have been started and, of course, most have failed. Most business startups fail. Some have grown substantially in those 30 years. Crappy old PeoplExpress, Frontier, Texas Air and tiny Continental were combined and have become a well-respected airline. The masses can now afford to fly, something not true in 1978.

The root of the OP's complaints is that his wages have stagnated. They haven't continued on an unbroken upward trajectory since he became a licensed A&P mechanic. Five years ago, his wages and benefits were slashed. Contrary to his indoctrination, his union didn't have the power to prevent those wage cuts and, to his dismay, may have even helped the company force the paycuts on him and his colleagues. I disagree that the OP's proposed solutions will cause his pay to rise to levels he deems sufficient.

I'm not sure I understand the link between the OP's wages and his desire that government "make it all better." Entrepreneurship is celebrated in this country. Jobs and Wozniak. Gates and Allen. Hewlett and Packard. Michael Dell. Page and Brin. Could any of them have accomplished what they did if they'd have been required to submit their plans to some government agency? If a government agency had set their prices? Scary.

I don't trust Representatives or Senators or their quasi-government agencies to competently micro-manage anything, let alone airlines. I don't trust Sen Obama, Clinton, McCain or Kennedy to make those decisions. I don't trust Pres Bush or his successors to make those decisions. The OP clearly disagrees. The OP shows his disdain for the current President and claims that Congress would have to step up to fix things. What if the Republicans retake control of Congress? What then? Think they care about labor? For that matter, do you really think Clinton or Obama care about labor? If so, then it's time for a random test. Labor's biggest problem is that neither Democrats or Republicans can be counted on to give a damn. Re-regulating airlines won't change that, despite the OP's protestations.

<_< ------ O.K. You disagree! One problem! The system "ain't worken"!!! We are sailing on a pond that is getting smaller, and smaller! What happens when the Industry gets down to say two, or three, mega Airlines and the price of tickets returns to "sensible!" The outcry from the general public would be deafening! At that point, you don't feel there would be (heaven forbid!) Government intervention?
So what do you suggest? We sail in smaller, and smaller circles? Time is running out! :unsure:

 

[Hopeful]

<_< ------ O.K. You disagree! One problem! The system "ain't worken"!!! We are sailing on a pond that is getting smaller, and smaller! What happens when the Industry gets down to say two, or three, mega Airlines and the price of tickets returns to "sensible!" The outcry from the general public would be deafening! At that point, you don't feel there would be (heaven forbid!) Government intervention?
So what do you suggest? We sail in smaller, and smaller circles? Time is running out! :unsure:

I'll tell what's gonna happen......US airline workers will be earning even less than they earn now because the airlines priorities are shareholders, executives and passengers, in that order....The industry dictates how employees are the ones to share the pain while the executives are the ones who share the gain because they made the WHARTON SCHOOL OF BUSINESS MBA DECISIONs TO F%^& THE EMPLOYEES.

Fuel is the only UNCONTROLLABLE cost of any transportation based business. Labor, on the other hand, is CONTROLLABLE and thanks to strange bedfellows like the TWU, it is just that, CONTROLLABLE.

You watch and wait and see how employees of all the mergers-to-be airlines get screwed while the executives maintain their standards of living...

Wait and see.............

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

Allow me to paraphrase and summarize the numerous points put forth by the OP. So the OP believes that:

1. Price competition is bad, not good;

2. Government should set prices for air travel;

3. Government should be become the sole fuel supplier to airlines;

4. Government should mandate that all aircraft maintenance be performed "in-house;"

5. Bankruptcy laws should mandate liquidation, not reorganization, for airline debtors; and

6. Congress and the President erred in 1978 in de-regulating air travel yet can now be trusted to competently manage a $100 billion industry.

I disagree with points number 1 and 2. Consumer choice, IMO, is paramount. Competition produces winners and losers and it appears that the OP is attempting to guarantee nothing but winners and prevent anyone from losing. Assigning Government (any government) that task is not what our country is all about.

I don't understand at all the OP's desire that the government become the sole provider of jetA. AMR is already the largest private purchaser of jetA in the world - 3 billion gallons a year - and it's not as though oil companies offer quantity discounts for even larger purchase volumes. What's next? Nationalizing the nation's gas stations? Should the government become the sole source of gasoline? No thanks.

The OP wants all aircraft maintenance performed in-house yet fails to differentiate between high quality outsourced maintenance and lower quality in-house repairs. Why not instead require that anyone who touches an airplane possess an A&P license? AA's in-house maintenance permits unlicensed individuals to repair airplanes under the watch of licensed mechanics. How's that really different form the major MROs?

I disagree that the bankruptcy laws should prohibit reorganization attempts of bankrupt debtors. I was in favor, however, of the shutdown of US and UA early on in their bankruptcies. Never before have I seen such vitriol from other posters. I was blasted for wishing people "out of work." Interesting how many posters on this thread now advocate the liquidation of the weak - in effect, expressing a desire that the "evil capitalist system" put poorly managed competitors out of their misery.

I disagree that Congress and Pres Carter erred in 1978. Regulation of air travel was the failed experiment and Congress and the President were brave enough to admit the mistake. Look at the meteoric growth of air travel in the 30 years since then. Numerous airlines have been started and, of course, most have failed. Most business startups fail. Some have grown substantially in those 30 years. Crappy old PeoplExpress, Frontier, Texas Air and tiny Continental were combined and have become a well-respected airline. The masses can now afford to fly, something not true in 1978.

The root of the OP's complaints is that his wages have stagnated. They haven't continued on an unbroken upward trajectory since he became a licensed A&P mechanic. Five years ago, his wages and benefits were slashed. Contrary to his indoctrination, his union didn't have the power to prevent those wage cuts and, to his dismay, may have even helped the company force the paycuts on him and his colleagues. I disagree that the OP's proposed solutions will cause his pay to rise to levels he deems sufficient.

I'm not sure I understand the link between the OP's wages and his desire that government "make it all better." Entrepreneurship is celebrated in this country. Jobs and Wozniak. Gates and Allen. Hewlett and Packard. Michael Dell. Page and Brin. Could any of them have accomplished what they did if they'd have been required to submit their plans to some government agency? If a government agency had set their prices? Scary.

I don't trust Representatives or Senators or their quasi-government agencies to competently micro-manage anything, let alone airlines. I don't trust Sen Obama, Clinton, McCain or Kennedy to make those decisions. I don't trust Pres Bush or his successors to make those decisions. The OP clearly disagrees. The OP shows his disdain for the current President and claims that Congress would have to step up to fix things. What if the Republicans retake control of Congress? What then? Think they care about labor? For that matter, do you really think Clinton or Obama care about labor? If so, then it's time for a random test. Labor's biggest problem is that neither Democrats or Republicans can be counted on to give a damn. Re-regulating airlines won't change that, despite the OP's protestations.

1. Price competition is NOT bad when logic is used to dictate the cost of a product in order to ensure a profit. Competition IS bad when a company charges less then the cost to produce the product and turns to the employees for life changing scarifices only to turn around and reward themselves with the sacrifices made.

2. Why not have the government set airline fares? They did before and airlines made a profit. The airlines can not seem to get it right on their own. (See #1.)

3. Government should/could set fuel prices. Why is the suggestion of creating privatized company that sells fuel to all airlines, hence helping to level the playing field, a bad idea? A profit could be made and used to overhaul the infrastructure.

4. Yes, the government should mandate that US registered a/c do maintenance in-house. Why shouldn't they? Airlines would have better quality control AND it would prevent American jobs from going overseas to less skilled/trained people. Are you against keeping highly skilled jobs in the US?

5. Yes, airlines should liquidate if they can not operate by playing the same rules everyone else does. How many times, (1, 2, 3 4 times), should a company be allowed to go into BK, break contracts, etc. AND still allow management to sit back and claim bonuses why employees bare the burden?

6. Yes. Perhaps not a "full" re-regulation but as I point out/suggest, something needs to be done. Airline managements have acted liked spoiled, greedy children and when punished, ie. BK, it is like the child being sent to his room but they have tv, Nintendo, internet, cell phones to play with.

And last but not least:

7. What is your suggestion for saving the airlines?