A captain''s pay

LuAve

Newbie
Sep 1, 2002
6
0
Pilots at United claim that they are shouldering most of the labor pay cuts. Lets look at that.
A British Airways 777 captain makes about 106,000 pounds, after a 17% pay raise a few months back, or about $166,000US. That is way less then a UA captain after their 29% pay cut. They max out at 35 days vacation and they dont get paid for trips that fall within those days. They fly way more then a UA pilot per month. A BA two person cockpit works their routes from LHR all the way to ORD and all over the East Coast. The same goes for all european carriers. US carriers do need a third pilots after 8 hrs flight time, but a relief pilot to fly Boston, JFK or EWR to London? That third pilot alone costs way more then $2million per year per route! And I am not counting how much it costs on simulator time, hotels, per diem, first class seat if it can be sold, etc. How do I get to that figure? Do the math and count how many hours a day to go back and forth to London from JFK and then how many pilots UA needs to fly Rlf on that route, then pile up benefits and pension on top of salary. It does not stop there. Why block two B-class seats on the ORD-PEK flight with all that revenue loss? At any other airline a pilot will eat in the cockpit.
Why do UA pilots in Amsterdam have to go downtown? UA F/A''s stay at The Hague at a perfectly good hotel, good enough for US Airways and American Airlines pilots and F/A''s. Why the extra cost for an extra bus, two round trips a day, (IAD and ORD pilots), and more money for a more expensive hotel room? That scene repeats itsef all over the system. The truth is, many UA pilots feel that they should be the only ones getting paid for their work and that everyone else in the property is over paid.
Not only here UA faces competition. No one is going to pay United twice as much, to go overseas, or to fly over here, as they will pay a foreign carrier for a first, b-class or economy seat or a cubic foot of cargo space because our pilots make twice as much as european pilots. Everyone else, including, yes, management make about the same as our people, except for our pilots.
Why to UA pilots, or any other US pilot, feels that he/she should be entitled to make more money then someone in europe? Life there is more expensive. Have anyone noticed the price of fuel in England or Germany? How much a house costs?
If we are to survive our pilots need to come down to sea level and accept that times have changed and to run a decent airline and make a profit you need good people in every department making a decent living. By the way, BA and Lufthansa have been making a profit, small but a profit, and their jobs are secure, at least for now. And one more thing, in the summer of 2000 I did my best to keep customers, that misguided people due to greed, were hell bend on sending away to other airlines.
 
OP
L

LuAve

Newbie
Sep 1, 2002
6
0
As usual? This is my first post on this board.
Now, what is this about housing allowance for BA pilots os any other european pilots at Lufthansa, Air France, etc? Education allowance? Maid allowance???? What in the world are you saying? Maid allowance? Butler? Gardner? Chef? Maybe some airline in a Middle East oil rich country. Maid allowance? Hefty govt. pension? It is less then S.S. here! And their company pension---for sure---is way less then any pilots pension in the US. The only thing you got right was the retirement at 55. It is like that for pilots and F/A's in England and most E.U. countries. But the european court already gave noticed that that scheme is on the way out. It is going to be phased out and people that are less then 50, can expect to work for as long as we do here.

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As usual you are only showing the parts of the story that support your point.

A British Airways pilot, as are most foreign pilots, provided with a housing allowance, education allowance (for children), staff allowance (maid etc,). They also retire from BA at 55yrs of age with a hefty govt. subdised pension in addition to their BA pension.

Hardly an apples to apples comparison in your post!!
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[/blockquote]
 

bigbusdrvr

Senior
Mar 2, 2003
366
12
[blockquote]
----------------
On 3/3/2003 6:54:57 PM LuAve wrote:

Pilots at United claim that they are shouldering most of the labor pay cuts. Lets look at that.
A British Airways 777 captain makes about 106,000 pounds, after a 17% pay raise a few months back, or about $166,000US. That is way less then a UA captain after their 29% pay cut. They max out at 35 days vacation and they dont get paid for trips that fall within those days. They fly way more then a UA pilot per month. A BA two person cockpit works their routes from LHR all the way to ORD and all over the East Coast. The same goes for all european carriers. US carriers do need a third pilots after 8 hrs flight time, but a relief pilot to fly Boston, JFK or EWR to London? That third pilot alone costs way more then $2million per year per route! And I am not counting how much it costs on simulator time, hotels, per diem, first class seat if it can be sold, etc. How do I get to that figure? Do the math and count how many hours a day to go back and forth to London from JFK and then how many pilots UA needs to fly Rlf on that route, then pile up benefits and pension on top of salary. It does not stop there. Why block two B-class seats on the ORD-PEK flight with all that revenue loss? At any other airline a pilot will eat in the cockpit.
Why do UA pilots in Amsterdam have to go downtown? UA F/A's stay at The Hague at a perfectly good hotel, good enough for US Airways and American Airlines pilots and F/A's. Why the extra cost for an extra bus, two round trips a day, (IAD and ORD pilots), and more money for a more expensive hotel room? That scene repeats itsef all over the system. The truth is, many UA pilots feel that they should be the only ones getting paid for their work and that everyone else in the property is over paid.
Not only here UA faces competition. No one is going to pay United twice as much, to go overseas, or to fly over here, as they will pay a foreign carrier for a first, b-class or economy seat or a cubic foot of cargo space because our pilots make twice as much as european pilots. Everyone else, including, yes, management make about the same as our people, except for our pilots.
Why to UA pilots, or any other US pilot, feels that he/she should be entitled to make more money then someone in europe? Life there is more expensive. Have anyone noticed the price of fuel in England or Germany? How much a house costs?
If we are to survive our pilots need to come down to sea level and accept that times have changed and to run a decent airline and make a profit you need good people in every department making a decent living. By the way, BA and Lufthansa have been making a profit, small but a profit, and their jobs are secure, at least for now. And one more thing, in the summer of 2000 I did my best to keep customers, that misguided people due to greed, were hell bend on sending away to other airlines.

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[/blockquote]
As usual you are only showing the parts of the story that support your point.

A British Airways pilot, as are most foreign pilots, provided with a housing allowance, education allowance (for children), staff allowance (maid etc,). They also retire from BA at 55yrs of age with a hefty govt. subdised pension in addition to their BA pension.

Hardly an apples to apples comparison in your post!!
 

Cart Pusher

Advanced
Aug 20, 2002
146
0
LuvAve echoes the sentiments of almost every airline employee at every major airline in the U.S. - not to mention the general public these days. Gone are the glory days when people stopped and stared in awe at a Pilot walking by in his uniform with nothing but respect. Those days are LONG, LONG gone. People think of Pilots as bus drivers these days and would love to see them take a large pay cut so they can continue to enjoy those rock bottom basement fares they are currently enjoying. They would love to see everyone else in the industry take those same paycuts but most people know that most every other front line airline employee is already living on poverty level wages.

Your attitudes are what's going to drive your, once well respected and glorious, airline into the same grave that Eastern, Braniff and Pan Am are in. Think it won't happen? Come back and tell us about it in another year. And see how you are getting by on unemployment wages.
 
Oct 3, 2002
25
0
Dude,
You are beating a dead horse. The overpaid pilot arguments took place last year on this board.

I happen to be quite satisfied with my salary (a little less so now). Although I am envious at the thought of having an allowance for a maid and gardener.

Kindly do us all a favor and crawl back under your rock (or podium).
 

bigbusdrvr

Senior
Mar 2, 2003
366
12
[blockquote]
----------------
On 3/3/2003 10:00:11 PM Cart Pusher wrote:

LuvAve echoes the sentiments of almost every airline employee at every major airline in the U.S. - not to mention the general public these days. Gone are the glory days when people stopped and stared in awe at a Pilot walking by in his uniform with nothing but respect. Those days are LONG, LONG gone. People think of Pilots as bus drivers these days and would love to see them take a large pay cut so they can continue to enjoy those rock bottom basement fares they are currently enjoying. They would love to see everyone else in the industry take those same paycuts but most people know that most every other front line airline employee is already living on poverty level wages.

Your attitudes are what's going to drive your, once well respected and glorious, airline into the same grave that Eastern, Braniff and Pan Am are in. Think it won't happen? Come back and tell us about it in another year. And see how you are getting by on unemployment wages.
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[/blockquote]
I believe you are correct. The flying public will have their wish. Remember you get what you pay for!! For every low cost agent you have mistakes (lost bags etc). I hope we don't have to deal with a lot of low cost pilot mistakes, It could get deadly!!

Remember the only reason you have low cost pilots now is they thought they would move up to a good wage someday, those people will be passing on this career now. Watch out in the future.

 
Oct 3, 2002
25
0
Cart Pusher,
The pilot attitude argument is also a stale one. I, for one, still have a positive attitude about our situation.

I will commend you for not throwing in the old "if you don't like it then quit" line. Kudos to you.

P.S. Can anybody tell me how to apply to become a BA pilot's gardener?
 

Hopeful

Veteran
Dec 21, 2002
5,998
347
Rememember this:

When the aircraft is on AutoPilot, aircraft maintenance his flying it!
 

luv2fly

Veteran
Aug 21, 2002
1,187
0
www.usaviation.com
[blockquote]
----------------
On 3/3/2003 10:00:11 PM Cart Pusher wrote:

LuvAve echoes the sentiments of almost every airline employee at every major airline in the U.S. - not to mention the general public these days. Gone are the glory days when people stopped and stared in awe at a Pilot walking by in his uniform with nothing but respect[/blockquote]

I guess if the pilot is a glorified bus driver, that would make the cart pusher a glorified vending machine?
 
OP
L

LuAve

Newbie
Sep 1, 2002
6
0
You concentrated on the pay, because I used it as the title for my posting. What I am saying is that I dont believe our pilots are under paid, not even after the pay cut at UA. But true enough we need to be competitive, not only domestically but also with foreign carriers. We are truly exposed to a global economy. My main point is: The extra ridiculous things such as blocking two b-seats, so a pilot does not have a passenger seating besides him on flight to Beijing from Chicago during a meal. What is wrong with eating in the cockpit? They have two bunks to sleep on on that 777! Or flying a 3 person cockpit on flights across the Atlantic less then 8hrs and blocking a first class seat for a pilot to sleep on? I never heard of any safety issue with the european carriers because they fly a two person cockpit from the East Coast to London.
In many cities in the States and overseas, UA F/A's stay at hotels where Pilots and F/A's for other airlines stay, why do our pilots have to take extra vans and go stay at other hotels? That's so much waste going around. We have over 1000 pilots laid off. Those people need to get back to work. Reducing staffing requirements will not help in a short time, but all those reductions in costs will make our airline competitive and we will be here for them to come back, sooner then never.
But it does not stop with the pilots. Why do our F/A's have such things as unlimited requests for days off? We must be running the largest welfare plan after the gov. We have those F/A's on voluntary furlough, receiving benefits, or many working 40 hrs a month or less due to giving their trips away and receiving benefits! AA has less F/A's then us even after they purchased TWA. Why? Because thay can fly as many hours as they want as long as they meet the FAR's. We are limited to 255 hrs per quarter and maybe now to 270, still way less then DAL or AA or any other european carrier, or any carrier in the world. If you figure that any F/A brings in an average of two dependents that will cost the company on medical and dental, it is just crazy to have all the people that we do. I might be one of the people to get laid off if all of a seudden we could fly as much as AA or DAL, but we need a healthy competetive airline to bring back our laid off pilots and F/A's that will involuntarily get furlough, and any other employee. We need to fight for our salaries, (even the pilots!), benefits and pensions. But, please, lets realize that we need a healthy airline to accomplish that and adapt to a new situation so we can survive. It seems that every employee group sees itself to be entitled and deserving of everything. We need our Unions to fight for us and recognise what battles we can win and the ones that we need to retreat from so we can win the war.
And one last thing, why in the world do we need mechanics guiding planes into the gates?
Lets urge our leaders to realize that certain things have to go so we can be healthy enough to have good jobs waiting
for our co-workers that are now laid off.
 

Cart Pusher

Advanced
Aug 20, 2002
146
0
[blockquote]
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On 3/4/2003 7:11:49 AM luv2fly wrote:

I guess if the pilot is a glorified bus driver, that would make the cart pusher a glorified vending machine?
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[/blockquote]

I think a vending maching is more glamarous than a Flight Attendant. There isn't much glamarous in anyone's eyes about this job anymore.
 

ual747mech

Senior
Nov 26, 2002
279
0
[blockquote]
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On 3/4/2003 11:27:57 AM ExThunderGuppy wrote:

Hopeful,
I have had autopilots malfunction enroute several times. What does that mean for maintenance flying the a/c?
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[/blockquote]

That was operator error and autopilots maintained by outside vendor.
 

ALPAAV8R

Newbie
Aug 30, 2002
3
0
LuAve fails to note that UAL pilots are now paid less than their peers at American, Delta (who are still paid at a rate that is better than anything UAL pilots ever achieved), Northwest, and Continental.

He fails to note that UAL 737 and A320 pilots now earn less than Southwest Airlines pilots.

He fails to note that UAL pilots - as will ALL UAL employees no doubt - will take even further cuts in compensation and work rules before this bankrupcy is over.

He says, "Pilots at United claim that they are shouldering most of the labor pay cuts. Lets look at that." But then DOESN'T talk about that at all - rather he launches into a diatribe about poorly paid foreign carrier pilots. Why didn't he simply go for the gold and cite Maylasian or Aeroflot pay rates to further his goals?

He fails to acknowledge that, of all UAL employee groups, the pilot HAVE - NO QUESTION - accepted by far the deepest pay cuts. It's a fact, it cannot be denied.

He makes a false claim that seats are blocked on UAL flights so that UAL pilots can enjoy their crew meals in first class without a passenger next to them - which is LUDICROUS. It is simply untrue.

He *****es about the pilot's contractual hotel requirements but fails to mention that the flight attendants have sought exactly the same contractual requirements in THEIR contract for decades, and finally GOT a parity-with-the-pilots clause in their last contract. He also fails to acknowledge that hotel quality will SURELY be one of the items that will bite the dust in these bankrupcy proceedings.

He asks the absurdly naive question, "Why do UA pilots, or any other US pilots, feel that he/she should be entitled to make more money then someone in europe?" But he does not stop to wonder why ANYONE in America feels that he/she deserves to earn whatever it is that they can negotiate. Period. Am I to believe that LuAve turns down annual pay raises if his counter parts in Europe did not get one or offers to give whatever he earns over whatever a European might earn doing his job back to his company? Talk about a bankrupt line of reasoning...

Not that it matters (ref. the above), but LuAve states that "life there is more expensive" ref. Europe when the FACT is that California - where I am based - is FAR more expensive than Europe on almost any measurable cost of living scale. I am a former Lufthansa employee and I had dinner with one of my Lufthansa pilot friends the other night near LAX and we, once again, went over this exact same thing. His conclusion - and I concur - is that his home and cost of living in a lovely small town in Germany not far from his Frankfurt base is FAR less expensive than anything in the SFO bay area and less than Los Angeles also.

He makes the false claim that, "Everyone else, including, yes, management make about the same as our people, except for our pilots," when the TRUTH is that European executives - in addition to almost every employee at their airlines - are paid FAR LESS than their U.S. counterparts. Strange that LuAve singles out only the pilots at UAL...

Finally, LuAve signs off with a pilot-hater zinger: "And one more thing, in the summer of 2000 I did my best to keep customers, that misguided people due to greed, were hell bend on sending away to other airlines."

Despite the poor english I think I know what he's getting at. I sould add that EVERY WEEK for the past nine years I've done my best to keep UAL customers that a small percentage of hate filled and bitter UAL CSRs and Flight Attendants seem hell bent on abusing away to other airlines. I stand and greet my passengers on every flight and the primary reason I do that is to pull CSR and F/A "damage control" - so right back at ya LuAve. Safeguard that kernel of hate and bitterness - you can do it LuAve! Maybe you'll do us, and our longsuffering loyal passengers, a big favor and stroke out...