AA donates MD-80 to Tulsa Tech

FWAAA

Veteran
Jan 5, 2003
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When you start with about 360 of something you're slowly retiring, it makes sense to donate a few of them to schools:

TULSA, Okla., March 4, 2011 /PRNewswire/ -- American Airlines, the largest private employer in Tulsa, is donating one of its MD-80 aircraft to Tulsa Tech. The plane, which American is retiring from its MD-80 fleet, will provide students in the Aviation Maintenance Technology (AMT) program at Tulsa Tech with an opportunity to gain practical experience by working on a commercial aircraft.

Tulsa Tech offers a cutting-edge, FAA-approved curriculum to train certified technicians who can repair, maintain and inspect aircraft. The donated MD-80 will provide students with hands-on experience as they hone their newly acquired skills.

"At American Airlines, we are committed to helping future mechanics and engineers have access to the current technology and services," said Bill Collins, American's Vice President – Base Maintenance. "We are thrilled to donate one of our MD-80 aircraft to Tulsa Tech, which will help them provide a new generation with new opportunities for world-class training and practical experience."

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/American-Airlines-Donates-prnews-2435611411.html?x=0&.v=1

The article says that AFW provides heavy maintenance for AA's 767s (formerly performed at MCIE, right?) while TULE overhauls all other AA mainline jets. In 1999, when AA acquired the first 777s, wasn't AFW designated as the overhaul facility for the 777s?
 
When you start with about 360 of something you're slowly retiring, it makes sense to donate a few of them to schools.

Each one donated is one a competitor can't use against you on a route and the tax write off is the value of a working aircraft (never mind the aircraft wouldn't bring that value on the open market), "losing" more money for the company whilst negotiating labor contracts.

Bastards.
 
When you start with about 360 of something you're slowly retiring, it makes sense to donate a few of them to schools:



http://finance.yahoo.com/news/American-Airlines-Donates-prnews-2435611411.html?x=0&.v=1

The article says that AFW provides heavy maintenance for AA's 767s (formerly performed at MCIE, right?) while TULE overhauls all other AA mainline jets. In 1999, when AA acquired the first 777s, wasn't AFW designated as the overhaul facility for the 777s?

Yes....newsest faciltiy got the newest jet.

I sure wish i had access to an ACTUAL jetliner when I was in school many years ago.
 
When you start with about 360 of something you're slowly retiring, it makes sense to donate a few of them to schools:



http://finance.yahoo.com/news/American-Airlines-Donates-prnews-2435611411.html?x=0&.v=1

The article says that AFW provides heavy maintenance for AA's 767s (formerly performed at MCIE, right?) while TULE overhauls all other AA mainline jets. In 1999, when AA acquired the first 777s, wasn't AFW designated as the overhaul facility for the 777s?
Well I guess American is reading the forum. They are finally listening to Bob about the shortage of AMT's in the near future and there they are doing something about it. Getting more kids involved. I'm sure these kids never plan on working, they are going to sit at home all day and play there X box or what ever it's the do these days and Continue to sponge. So the shortage will continue.

Hey American since you are reading the forums how about a raise already and NOT 1.5 to 3%.. After eight years people are finally coming to there breaking point and it doesn' look pretty for anyone
 
At American Airlines, we are committed to helping future mechanics and engineers have access to the current technology and services," said Bill Collins, American's Vice President – Base Maintenance. "We are thrilled to donate one of our MD-80 aircraft to Tulsa Tech, which will help them provide a new generation with new opportunities for world-class training and practical experience."

Now what this really says, "At aa, we are committed to help train our future "C" scale mechanics and provide our new generation of twu mushrooms with the practicle experience they need to run our low cost MRO business."

Writing is on the wall Tulsa/AFW jmo
 
Each one donated is one a competitor can't use against you on a route and the tax write off is the value of a working aircraft (never mind the aircraft wouldn't bring that value on the open market), "losing" more money for the company whilst negotiating labor contracts.

Bastards.

You may be old but you appear to know as little about accounting and taxes as I know about fixing airplanes.

Nobody's buying up used MD-80s to compete against anyone, let alone AA. Allegiant is the only domestic airline that's acquired any of them in the past decade, and they aren't AA's competition.

AA will likely never pay federal income taxes again given the billions of dollars of loss carryforwards. It is much more likely that AA will liquidate before it generates enough profit to pay taxes again.

Accounting rules do not permit AA to write off any more than the fair market value of the MD-80 which is precisely what it would bring in the open market. How much would that be? Maybe a million or two dollars?

A million or two has what to do with the company not wanting to pay you fairly? AA donates a plane that's worth about its weight in alloy value and it's all about "losing" money during contract negotiations? Nope. Sorry, ain't buying it.
 
... snip

AA will likely never pay federal income taxes again given the billions of dollars of loss carryforwards. It is much more likely that AA will liquidate before it generates enough profit to pay taxes again.

... snip

Nope. Sorry, ain't buying it.

Excellent - you couldn't have done better if I'd asked. Unfortunately, this tidbit will be downplayed by the pro-company twits. I'm only a grouchy and crazy old Diemaker (with my dirty old man Journeyman's Card) so nobody listens to me but sometimes they do listen to you business boys.

For the benefit of those not well versed in accounting, Loss Carryforward is an accounting technique that applies the current year's net operating losses to future years' profits in order to reduce tax liability. Generally accepted accounting principles (GAAP) specify that loss carryforwards can be used in any one of the seven years following the loss.

So, have a loss and use paper losses to offset profits insuring pressure from the pro-company and anti-union forces to "be thankful you've got a job".

... and Jesus Christ rode a bicycle, also.

Now, explain to we heathens how AMR's carryforwards affect AA's bottom line (their supposed ability to pay a decent wage) by there horrible quartely and yearly financial losses (obviously on paper) when nearly any amount of profit made can quite easily be offset by these carryforwards and result in no taxes paid nor the showing a profit.

FWAAA, I ain't buying it either nor should anyone else. Mark Twain's famous quote, "There are lies, damned lies, and statistics" should really read:

There are lies, damned lies, statistics, and accounting.

(especially when our "representation" allows these numbers to be used against us).
 
AA did a good thing by doing this- it will be a tax write off for the company and will help students for years to come.
 
Loss Carryforward is an accounting technique that applies the current year's net operating losses to future years' profits in order to reduce tax liability. Generally accepted accounting principles (GAAP) specify that loss carryforwards can be used in any one of the seven years following the loss.

So, have a loss and use paper losses to offset profits insuring pressure from the pro-company and anti-union forces to "be thankful you've got a job".

Uh, what's your point, Frank? Anyone who is the least capable yet still qualified to negotiate a contract should be able to recognize a loss on an ebitda basis (e.g. before any of the various accounting measures are factored in). Avoiding taxes and attaining an operating profit are mutually exclusive.
 
Uh, what's your point, Frank? Anyone who is the least capable yet still qualified to negotiate a contract should be able to recognize a loss on an ebitda basis (e.g. before any of the various accounting measures are factored in). Avoiding taxes and attaining an operating profit are mutually exclusive.
You business guys quote the accounting rules yet tell us the company is broke, even though masking profits with previous years' losses - OK - WHICH IS IT?

Is the company showing paper losses during contract time or not?
 
You business guy quote the accounting rules yet tell us the company is broke, even though masking profits with previous years' losses - OK - WHICH IS IT?

Is the company showing paper losses during contract time or not?

You're confusing GAAP accountng principles and federal income tax law.

In post #2, you posted a mistaken belief that AA will obtain an inflated income tax writeoff from this contribution. Not only was your assertion that AA could write off an inflated value inaccurate, but on top of that, AA hasn't paid federal income taxes since 2000 and is unlikely to ever pay them again. You were wrong about the value of any tax writeoff, but even if you had been correct, it wouldn't matter, because AA gets no tax value from charitable gifts like this one. For tax purposes, AMR is like the homeless, income-less hobo on the street: tax writeoffs have no value if you don't pay taxes.

For GAAP accounting purposes, the tax loss carryforwards are irrelevant. The multi-billion dollar losses suffered by AMR over the past decade did not include any extra losses from prior years - those prior year losses are what will prevent AA from having to pay taxes if and when it ever shows profits again. The federal tax code imposes corporate taxes on corporate profits, but Congress was fair enough to allow corporations a break when the profits aren't enough to bring the corporation into the black when considering prior losses.

And now you're posting nonsense about AA "masking profits with prior year losses." Uh huh.

"Is the company showing paper losses during contract time or not?" Yes, and just like you, I'm certain that it's all an artifice designed by Arpey and Horton to screw you and the other financial wizards of the worthless union (like Mr Owens).

Arpey and Horton are so dead-set against you ever getting another raise that they've fooled Wall Street all these years by reporting massive losses just so they can cry poormouth while you're demanding "restore and more." No, scratch that . . . what they have done is convince everyone on Wall Street to conspire with them against you. While Delta, United, Continental and USAir reported 2010 aggregate profits of several billion dollars, there's AMR losing another imaginary half billion, all part of a complex conspiracy to screw you out of the raises that are rightfully yours.

One of the best things the AMP could do is arrange for some basic accounting education for its members once it replaces the worthless union.
 
... snip

The federal tax code imposes corporate taxes on corporate profits, but Congress was fair enough to allow corporations a break when the profits aren't enough to bring the corporation into the black when considering prior losses.

And now you're posting nonsense about AA "masking profits with prior year losses." Uh huh.

... snip

Which way is it?
 
Well I guess American is reading the forum. They are finally listening to Bob about the shortage of AMT's in the near future and there they are doing something about it. Getting more kids involved. I'm sure these kids never plan on working, they are going to sit at home all day and play there X box or what ever it's the do these days and Continue to sponge. So the shortage will continue.

Hey American since you are reading the forums how about a raise already and NOT 1.5 to 3%.. After eight years people are finally coming to there breaking point and it doesn' look pretty for anyone

I guess giving them planes makes sense. It accustoms them to working on planes with the AA paint scheme for free. They learn to associate "AA" with working for no monetary gain.


This past Tuesday the company revealed they are working with seven schools across the country in order to get workers. They actually think they will get the best in the class!!!

Years ago AA wouldnt look at you unless you had 5 years experience in Heavy Turbine aircraft, now they are trying to get them with zero experience right out of the schools.

What we need to do is make sure these kids see whats happened to the profession. When we went in the objective was to work for the fly-by-nighters to get the experience to get to "the majors". Now a days the smaller outfits pay better than the big ones. Its not that they pay better than they used to its that the big ones have used the BK courts and the RLA to drive wages down.

Every one of these kids should get a copy of the graph I made that shows how our real pay has declined and be informed that the starting pay today is less than it was when their parents were in High School. We should let them know how they will have to surrender their rights and be subjected to random searches without cause(piss tests), surrender their social life (working shifts, weekends and Holidays) and be the subject of harrassment by the FAA all in an effort to make others rich, because they certainly will never share in the gain their skills help generate. They should be told how despite huge incraeses in productivity the airlines continue to demand more concessions, how if they dont get them through the RLA they go to BK court. These kids should hear the whole story, not just AA's side.

We now know three of the schools, the one they Donated the MD-80 to in Miami, the one in Tulsa, one, possibly two in New York.
 
Which way is it?
Dont hold your breath.

You have to remember that corporations write tax law. While corporations complain about the 35% corporate tax rate and their pundits on Fox try to spin that around and say how much lower the tax rate is on regular working people its all a lie.

We pay taxes on our income, or Revenue. In other words we pay upfront. Corporations pay taxes on their profits not their revenue. Its a very unfair system but the fact is that corporations, while essential, are bloated ineffecient economic units, much less effecient than the average working class family. They get to take their revenue, buy whatever they want, new furnishings for the executive suites, gold fixtures in the bathrooms, teak wall panelling for the office, a car for the CEO, you name it, then they only have to pay tax on what they didnt spend. We on the other hand have our revenue taxed then have to try and figure out how to put food on the table and keep a roof over our heads with whats left. To those pundits who decry the corporate tax on profits I say "fine, lets have corporations pay the tax on their revenue at the same rate as working families and other legal persons".

If you were told that you could buy everything you need off your income then only pay tax on whats left over (the profits) how much would you have left over for the taxman?? With the Alternative Minimum Tax no matter how much carryover losses you have, no matter how much in debt you are in, if you have income you will pay taxes, most corporations dont pay taxes.

What it comes down to is the average working class family is a better managed economic unit than the average corporation run by someone who is being paid millions of dollars a year for his mismanagement.

If a company is a sole propriortorship profits are irrelent. Why show profits and pay taxes when you can spend it? If a group of investors own a corporation and are able to get returns on that investment through means other than profits or stock prices why wouldnt they? If the corporation in question is hugely labor intensive then why would they ever show profits?

As FWAAA pointed out "AA hasnt paid taxes since 2000 and will likely never pay them again". So forget about the taxes, we dont get to see their tax returns just the 10K which is a form required by the SEC thats issued for investors. The intent is to insure that investors arent mislead by management into paying more than the stock is worth. Its not there to give labor an insight into how much the company can pay us. The SEC doesnt look for statements that are overly pessimistic, as far as they are concerned they want every real or imagined liability there, they are the lookout for the opposite.

FWAAA tries to spin this off as if we all see black helicopters but he fails to address certain facts;
a) The airline industry has never shown consistant profits, even during the regulated era profits were minimal, in fact the most profitable years for carriers were post-deregulation, but so were the most unprofitable ones. However despite this the industry still attracts enough capitol to grow and renew and it attracts nearly all of that Capitol from large financial institutions that know that airlines usually dont make profits. Why is that?

B) Airlines generate huge amounts of revenue. But they are hugely labor intensive, if a carrier shows profits they will be unlikely to be able to prevent workers from getting a share of those profits. (SWA, UPS , etc) As the industry consolidates they become more vulnerable to labor. In order to keep labor in check and maximize their return the people who own the airlines must make sure they soak up or divert all that revenue before they become profits. As FWAAA admitted before he bailed out of the debate the oil companies are not taking all that extra revenue that we see the airlines generating, banks, despite the fact that AA lowered their debt saw increased revenue from the airlines, it would be as if you paid off half your mortgage but you are paying more in interest every month instead of less. Even counting that and fuel he could not explain what AA did with the other $1.6 billion in extra revenue. What I'm getting at is that the banks and other finaincial institutions dont thow away money in the airlines, they get the money out through ways other than profits or stock value. Otherwise they would have stopped providing capitol years ago. Whether its bank fees, landing fees, parts, the airlines pay excessively high for things that should not be that high. $1000 for a toilet seat. $250,000 for a black box that has older technology than the desktop computers to see on the curb on recycling day, $4000 landing fees, $1,000,000 fees to refinance a loan. $180,000,000 for an airplane. While each of these parties may be willing to compete with the other they are all willing to accept our pay cuts and concessions as a green light to charge even more. At the end of the day if we dont show up for work they all lose. The only people who have an interest in seeing whats really going on is us, the workers, we are the only ones locked out of the party.

c) Many of the other parties have seen huge increases in what they suck out of the airline. You have to remember that the carrier shrunk by a third but its revenue increased by around a third, most other costs should have shrunk by the same amount but some increased , not only did they increase to the point where they made up for the loss of volume ( ex the expectation that 33% fewer landings would equate to 33% less in landing fees paid, buying less fuel, fewer toilet seats etc) , but they increased enough to absorb the 33% increase in revenue.

d) Black helicopters do exist! :ph34r: :ph34r: :p ;)