Aa Mechanic Pay Vs Cpi

[Bob Owens]

mweiss,Feb 22 2005, 05:04 PM]
I agree that if you took a mechanic who was TOS 25 years ago, and that same mechanic continued to do the same job for the past 25 years, that mechanic's real wages have declined.

I agree that productivity has also risen in that time.

This is true, by the way, in many, many industries in the US. Just one example: doctors see more patients per day than they did 25 years ago, and their real wages have declined in that time.


Have they? Or have their expenses dramatically risen? The fact is that what pateints pay for service has increased faster than inflation. So while doctors net real income may have declined that does not mean that their wage has.
Ok, how about at least keeping it in this industry? You know, apples and oranges?How about going into executive compensation. How has executive compensation of legacy carriers compared with employeee wages and/or performance of the company? How does executive compensation compare between executives of LCCs and legacy carriers, and how to you draw the line between them? I mean if we go by employee compensation then SWA is not an LCC and AA is. If AA pays much lower wages yet their costs are higher whose fault is that?

 

[mweiss]

If you're looking to me to justify executive compensation, you'll be looking for a long time.

What's the source of the wage-vs-CPI graph that you keep posting?

Regarding doctors, I should have been clearer that I'm speaking of GPs. Yes, specialists have an easier time keeping income up.

 

[Bob Owens]

mweiss,Feb 22 2005, 05:56 PM]If you're looking to me to justify executive compensation, you'll be looking for a long time.

What's the source of the wage-vs-CPI graph that you keep posting?

The TWU/AA contract for mechanic and related and the CPI as posted by the US Government. I think I already offered you all the data. Its in excell and I could forward it to your E-mail if you like.

Regarding doctors, I should have been clearer that I'm speaking of GPs. Yes, specialists have an easier time keeping income up.

 

[mweiss]

My specific question is, are you looking at TOS for the past 25 years?

 

[Bob Owens]

My specific question is, are you looking at TOS for the past 25 years?

[post="249888"][/post]​

Define TOS.

These figures are for a top paid A&P line mechanic.

I get the impression that you do not look at this as a profession. The fact is that being an aircraft mechanic is a continual learning experience, new technology and new aircraft are always coming into service and the experience and knowledge gained results in increased value for the carrier and at the very least pay rates should at least keep pace with inflation and productivity.

 

[mweiss]

Define TOS.
These figures are for a top paid A&P line mechanic.

TOS=Top Of Scale. Does AA have any mechanics that have been at TOS for the past 25 years? They'd be, what, 70 years old?

I get the impression that you do not look at this as a profession.

You get the wrong impression.

The fact is that being an aircraft mechanic is a continual learning experience

Of course. Nonetheless, the productivity curve is an S-curve, with an asymptotic maximum that hits somewhere in the neighborhood of 10 years. It is, in fact, the motivation behind the existence of a TOS in the first place. The two curves don't map all that well, though.

at the very least pay rates should at least keep pace with inflation and productivity.

[post="249913"][/post]​

Yes, those two elements should be components of the wage profile surface (three dimensions: service time, calendar year, hourly wage).

From the standpoint of value contribution, it seems that the increase in reliability of newer aircraft has served to decrease the value add of mechanics. That's not something that makes me happy, but that does appear to be the result.

The fact is, we all make decisions based on risk. The public's perception of air travel risk is that it's especially low. The statistics bear this out; there are far fewer fatalities in air travel in absolute terms, let alone in seat-mile terms, than there were in the regulated days.

The upshot? People value quality maintenance less than they used to, because they perceive the value add of top-notch maintenance to be low. There's ample evidence that the mob isn't really all that smart.

 

[AMFAMAN]

TOS=Top Of Scale. Does AA have any mechanics that have been at TOS for the past 25 years? They'd be, what, 70 years old?

[post="249974"][/post]​

We do have one at top of scale for the past 62 years.

 

[Bob Owens]

mweiss,Feb 22 2005, 10:40 PM]
TOS=Top Of Scale. Does AA have any mechanics that have been at TOS for the past 25 years? They'd be, what, 70 years old?

Sure we have plenty of them, prior to 1983 it only took two years to get to top pay. As a matter of fact we have a coworker who has been at top pay for well over 50 years.

Yes, those two elements should be components of the wage profile surface (three dimensions: service time, calendar year, hourly wage).

From the standpoint of value contribution, it seems that the increase in reliability of newer aircraft has served to decrease the value add of mechanics.

I would disagree, the reliability has decreased the amount of mechanics needed per airplane but the number of airplanes out there has increased.

That's not something that makes me happy, but that does appear to be the result.

An appearance that no doubt did not take into account poor representation. Or do you feel that negotiating skills do not have any effect on the outcome of contract negotiations?

The fact is, we all make decisions based on risk. The public's perception of air travel risk is that it's especially low. The statistics bear this out; there are far fewer fatalities in air travel in absolute terms, let alone in seat-mile terms, than there were in the regulated days.

The public does not determine mechanics wages. And I doubt that most people would really say that they feel safer in an airplane than they do in their own car even though statistically they are safer.

The upshot? People value quality maintenance less than they used to, because they perceive the value add of top-notch maintenance to be low. There's ample evidence that the mob isn't really all that smart.

Or maybe the public is under the false assumption that the FAA vigorously monitors and enforces safety standards that are the same from carrier to carrier? I doubt that people are any less interested in quality maintenance than they were 40 years ago, its something that they never really thought about.

 

[Oneflyer]

I doubt that people are any less interested in quality maintenance than they were 40 years ago, its something that they never really thought about.

Maybe its the fact that the American public does associate unions with quality work.

I would much rather put my life in the hands of some hard working foreigner that I know needs and wants that job, than some union member that feels its his God given right to come to work every day to sit on his ass and get paid to do it, then has the gall to complain about the company that pays his salary.

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

Maybe its the fact that the American public does associate unions with quality work.

I would much rather put my life in the hands of some hard working foreigner that I know needs and wants that job, than some union member that feels its his God given right to come to work every day to sit on his ass and get paid to do it, then has the gall to complain about the company that pays his salary.

[post="250063"][/post]​

oneflyer, spoken like a true management stool.

I would DEMAND that my life be put in the hands, (when flying several hundred miles an hour at an altitude where the outside temperature would freeze you), of a skilled, proud & professional Aircraft Maintenance Technician that takes honor in his/her work and craftsmanship. Where this individual will always set the highest standard for others to follow. To achieve this you don't act as if God has given you the right to demand proper comensation. It is your bargaining power that achieves your demands.

What is galling is your blindness to what is actually happening in the airlines. But being in a cozy company office being paid to post on the internet from behind an alias is what you are good for. Next time you fly anywhere pray that the engine changed on your aircraft or computer systems that control your aircraft were not repaired/overhauled by a third world person willing to work for much less than a skilled American AMT does. Just because a person needs or wants a job doesn't mean that person knows that job.

 

[seed]

Maybe its the fact that the American public does associate unions with quality work.

You stated this is a fact. Please name your source and provide a link so we may see this for ourselves. The union people are also considered the "American public", no one has ever polled my neighborhood for a quality work questionnaire and the unions of America.

I do not know where you work, but here at MCIE you would be eventually fired for sitting all day, if not, then the management needs replaced.

Might I suggest you in fact do "put your life in the hands of a foreigner", it would make me more at ease also.

 

[eolesen]

oneflyer, spoken like a true management stool.
Next time you fly anywhere pray that the engine changed on your aircraft or computer systems that control your aircraft were not repaired/overhauled by a third world person willing to work for much less than a skilled American AMT does. Just because a person needs or wants a job doesn't mean that person knows that job.

[post="250076"][/post]​

What a supremicist load of crap.

Last time I checked, there haven't been a whole lot of examples of aircraft falling out of the sky due to having been overhauled in Asia, Australia, South America, Europe, the Middle East, or anywhere else outside of North America....

In fact, the only two maintenance related accidents I can think of in the past ten years have been with aircraft overhauled in US facilities by US citizens. Granted there may have been other examples where the cause wasn't easily identifiable.

Quality of work and skill aren't necessarily correlated with either wages or nationality.

 

[mweiss]

I would disagree, the reliability has decreased the amount of mechanics needed per airplane but the number of airplanes out there has increased.

Actually, that's another way of saying exactly the same thing.

An appearance that no doubt did not take into account poor representation. Or do you feel that negotiating skills do not have any effect on the outcome of contract negotiations?

I'm not following you. What's your point?

The public does not determine mechanics wages. And I doubt that most people would really say that they feel safer in an airplane than they do in their own car even though statistically they are safer.

The public does determine mechanics wages, albeit indirectly. Want proof? Watch what happens to an airline that markets itself as the one with the best mechanics. It has no effect on demand. As a result, you have little perceived value to consumers unless you start having lots of metal fall from the sky. You know it's true; I've heard many airline mechanics express their frustration at this phenomenon.

Or maybe the public is under the false assumption that the FAA vigorously monitors and enforces safety standards that are the same from carrier to carrier?

Perhaps.

I doubt that people are any less interested in quality maintenance than they were 40 years ago, its something that they never really thought about.

[post="250061"][/post]​

Also a possible explanation. My sense, however, is that it simply comes down to a lack of air crashes. To the public, maintenance has been "good enough." To do a better job costs money that the public doesn't want to pay. It may or may not be rational. If anything, I'd say we pay too much for it, relative to other dangers such as automobile fatalities...but we never have chosen to spend our resources based on real risk; it's always perceived risk.

 

[Wretched Wrench]

TOS= Does AA have any mechanics that have been at TOS for the past 25 years? They'd be, what, 70 years old?

Wrong again.

It used to take 3 or 3 1/2 years to reach top of scale. Into the 70's for sure. Perhaps even into early eighties. Could be as young as 47.

 

[Bob Owens]

mweiss,Feb 23 2005, 06:35 AM]
Actually, that's another way of saying exactly the same thing.

Not really. My statement is that productivity has increased and demand is still constant. In other words the increased productivity led to an increase in output but did not result in a surplus of workers. So the value should increase.

I'm not following you. What's your point?

Well it seems that you are of the opinion that the market simply sets the rate and there is little that workers can do to alter that rate.

The public does determine mechanics wages, albeit indirectly. Want proof? Watch what happens to an airline that markets itself as the one with the best mechanics. It has no effect on demand. As a result, you have little perceived value to consumers unless you start having lots of metal fall from the sky. You know it's true; I've heard many airline mechanics express their frustration at this phenomenon.

BS. The same arguement could be used if the airline ran a commercial showing pilots or executives.