AAG had 113,300 employees as of Dec. 31. That’s up nearly 3,000

La Li Lu Le Lo said:
What the pilot said is irrelevant.
 
You can say anything you want to excuse it but the fact is if he would have taken the time to do a perimeter check around the aircraft it would not have happened.
 
Would you ask someone if an electrical circuit was dead and make your life dependent on their information or would you have checked it yourself before you even started working on it?
Look I don't disagree with your point (to a point) 
but no, if i had to bet, the fact that he was told by the pilot that all the doors were shut is probably what would save his job. It would be at Delta at least. 
 
ThirdSeatHero said:
 
I never claimed UA did more than DL - I pointed out that your original post on the matter was incorrect ...
 
 
Again, contrary to your claim, UA Tech Ops does indeed insource customer work and actively pursues more - you clearly didn't know what you were talking about, and now in typical WT style you're trying to requalify your remarks with a volume-of-work comparison to try and deflect from your original incorrect statement.
 
Nice Try
Yep. IIRC don't they do the 2037s for the USAF C-17 fleet? Delta would kill to have that deal. 
 
and of course your Pratt 4000 shop is very well known and very respected. 
 
Bob Owens said:
 Just ask the IAM, didn't they agree to concessions while AA was pulling in Billions per quarter?  Thats why as we see from the LAX Town Hall they cant wait to cut a deal with the Association. 
good point. 
in general it doesn't happen. 
 
but plenty of stupid people running things at AA, Unions and management. That would be why yall labor relations are a joke. 
 
except that DL's maintenance CASM is lower than AA's so the notion that by doing everything they have lower costs simply doesn't translate into reality.

go talk with some of your bosses about how DL's maintenance CASM is lower than nearly every other US carrier but DL's strategy is based on specialization, not generalization.

notably, so is US'

and as much as you and 700 want to focus on headcount, DL and every other mgmt. group from every other airline focuses on costs.. because that is ultimately what matters to a company.

the reason why US has the highest amount of outsourcing is because the union has focused on a metric that doesn't really matter to the company.

given that they have been able to keep their employees lower paid than the industry, keeping more people on the payroll doing less specialized work is not that difficult.

in order for AA/US to pay its mechanics the same higher pay as other airlines, it will have to either increase the amount of insourcing to spread those costs over a larger pool or they will have to become more productive.

airlines simply do not pass out pay raises without getting something in return. The fact that AA released its fleet plan for 2015 right after the APA and APFA settlements is complete validation that they are increasing pay but decreasing work for those groups (FAs perhaps less so because AA is using larger aircraft).

and DL's investment in the AM JV is precisely because DL knows it needs to be a one-stop shop but cannot economically bid for airframe work with commercial customers.

and given that the future of TUL is still very much up in the air, AAL has one of the oldest maintenance work forces in the industry (according to Bob), and AAL has yet to settle anything with its mechanics, I would hardly be celebrating yet regarding AA's strategy vs DL's.
 
WorldTraveler said:
except that DL's maintenance CASM is lower than AA's so the notion that by doing everything they have lower costs simply doesn't translate into reality.

go talk with some of your bosses about how DL's maintenance CASM is lower than nearly every other US carrier but DL's strategy is based on specialization, not generalization.
More post filler of a bunch of crap that i haven't even talked about. I already know why there is a big difference in CASM.
 
WorldTraveler said:
and as much as you and 700 want to focus on headcount, DL and every other mgmt. group from every other airline focuses on costs.. because that is ultimately what matters to a company.
When we are talking about QOL and benefiting employees head count is a key metric.
but to you QOL is stupid, so its not shocking you don't understand that.
 
WorldTraveler said:
the reason why US has the highest amount of outsourcing is because the union has focused on a metric that doesn't really matter to the company.





Oh and that bankruptcy (two times) thing...
FIFY 



 
WorldTraveler said:
Delta simply do not pass out pay raises without getting something in return. The fact that AA released its fleet plan for 2015 right after the APA and APFA settlements is complete validation that they are increasing pay but decreasing work for those groups (FAs perhaps less so because AA is using larger aircraft).
FIFY
 
WorldTraveler said:
and DL's investment in the AM JV is precisely because DL knows it needs to be a one-stop shop but cannot economically bid for airframe work with commercial customers.
You mean that JV that isn't even doing MRO work? and you are saying that TechOps management referring to making Atlanta a one-stop shop are now wrong? Odd. 
 
and so now you are saying that all the airframe work Delta does for other airlines is unprofitable? 
 
WorldTraveler said:
and given that the future of TUL is still very much up in the air, AAL has one of the oldest maintenance work forces in the industry (according to Bob), and AAL has yet to settle anything with its mechanics, I would hardly be celebrating yet regarding AA's strategy vs DL's.
AA has done nothing to indicate this. 
IMHO it is nothing more than the AA lines guys wet dream. 
Tulsa goes away when Delta shuts Atlanta down. AA wont get the scope relief to shut it down. 
 
first, you are hardly the only person on here... if you want to have a personal conversation, send me an invite... I'll be happy to show up.

QOL has a cost - every item in a CBA does.

problem is that you and others think that DL's QOL is so bad that they will trade other forms of compensation in order to gain higher QOL. very few other employees actually will trade anything. and given that DL pays its employees better overall and has provided larger increases, the onus is on you to prove that DL employees are willing to give any of that up to gain better QOL.

no company just gives to its employees without receiving something in return. It is hardly an AA or DL thing.

I'd sit tight and see how the AM JV actually plays out... it's still pretty new - and so is the new mgmt. that pushed for getting the large engine cell. somehow you seem unable to believe that DL can do anything other than screw you every chance you can get.

and yes, TUL's future is far from certain. It is dependent on local concessions far more so than any other US carrier maintenance facility, its lease is not long-term, and Parker has demonstrated a bent for outsourcing more than keeping work inhouse.

there are few AA people who realistically believe that the TWU is going to be anywhere close to a hindrance to Parker if he decides to close or more likely reduce the size of TUL.

further, the biggest strike against it is that so much of the workforce is older.

I'd be happy if TUL is here for the long term but it is a lot less certain than you might want us to believe.
 
US' level of maintenance outsourcing peaked at 63.7% in 2008 and has fallen to 54.2% in 2013, the most recent year of data available.

while Parker might have brought SOME maintenance back inhouse US still has the highest percentage of maintenance outsourcing of the US legacy carriers.

but we know it is based on dollars and not heads and it is also government data so it doesn't count and is all just made up anyway.

and we know that if the IAM was really effective, US would never been allowed to get even to 63.7%. If unions can't stop mgmt. in BK, then it is kind of hard to argue that they are of value just because they can rebuild from a far worse place than before BK or from other non-union competitors.
 
topDawg said:
Yep. IIRC don't they do the 2037s for the USAF C-17 fleet? Delta would kill to have that deal. 
 
and of course your Pratt 4000 shop is very well known and very respected.
 
Correct on both counts - word is with the expanding next-gen fleet, we may crank the CFM lines back up - we'll see.
 
and yet newer aircraft require less maintenance at least for several years

AA is counting big time on a maintenance holiday because of all of its new aircraft.
 
AA spent $8,508 million on salary and related expenses for 94,400 mainline and 113,000 total employees

while DL $8,120 million on salary and related expenses for 79,655 total consolidated employees.
IN ADDITION, DL paid $1,085,000,000 in profit sharing for a combined salary and profit sharing expense of over $9.2 BILLION, by far larger than what AA and UA recorded for employee expense

UA paid $8,900 million on salary and related expenses for 84,000 employees.

despite the charge here that AA's workforce is the most senior in the industry, DL employees make considerably more.
once again, note that DL spent far more in total than either AA or UA and yet DL had less employees than either.

IN AA's case, DL spent over $1 BILLION more and yet had 35,000 fewer employees.

any notion that DL employees are anything but the highest paid legacy carrier employees in the US is simply inaccurate.
 
southwind said:
Contact whomever you like, I don't "PERSONALLY" know anyone who has damaged DL property and has gotten fired for it!
Oh, so if a topic doesn't specifically state "No personal attacks", it's all good?.............Game on, then !
 
 
southwind said:
I'm around aircraft everyday and haven't always worked in the engine shop, now take you and propaganda elsewhere!
And btw, talked to a fellow employee today, who's father works for UA, in Orlando.......and did he have some horror story's concerning the IAM. 45 years and still doesn't have weekends off, just for starters!
 
Don't really care whether you do or not. Now, that being said, I know people employed that damaged "Aircraft" and "Aircraft Parts", that still work at DL.
 
Next!
 
 
Well once again you have lied.
 
UA MCO ramp has rotating days off, they work four on and two off, that is what the members requested, only some of the leads and the Grievance Committee Chairman have fixed days off.
 
That is per a UA MCO ramp person, who actually works there.
 
700  do they do the 4 day 10 shift ( I think that's what it is)  ( apologies for taking it off topic)
 
WorldTraveler said:
US' level of maintenance outsourcing peaked at 63.7% in 2008 and has fallen to 54.2% in 2013, the most recent year of data available.

while Parker might have brought SOME maintenance back inhouse US still has the highest percentage of maintenance outsourcing of the US legacy carriers.

but we know it is based on dollars and not heads and it is also government data so it doesn't count and is all just made up anyway.

and we know that if the IAM was really effective, US would never been allowed to get even to 63.7%. If unions can't stop mgmt. in BK, then it is kind of hard to argue that they are of value just because they can rebuild from a far worse place than before BK or from other non-union competitors.
Once again World Fraudster posts misinformation.
 
Look at the numbers from 2004 or earlier, it took our CBA to be abrogated in the second bankruptcy for US to get the courts to let them outsource all that work, the IAM didnt agree to it.
 
Very few things were sent out before our CBA was abrogated in court.
 
Dont let the facts get in your way.
 
Once again World Fraudster posts misinformation.
 
Look at the numbers from 2004 or earlier, it took our CBA to be abrogated in the second bankruptcy for US to get the courts to let them outsource all that work, the IAM didnt agree to it.
 
Very few things were sent out before our CBA was abrogated in court.
 
Dont let the facts get in your way.
not sure what "other story" Kev thinks there is, but the only real story is that the IAM was powerless to stop cuts in BK... which is precisely when the majority of forced cuts have taken place.

Given that AA, CO, DL, and NW and perhaps other airlines ALL cut at least headcount and in many times also salaries, it is absolutely factual that unions have been completely powerless to stop mgmt. cuts whether in BK or outside of it.

so the notion that unions have been an effective means to stop mgmt. from making cuts is absolutely accurate.

further, given that US has been out of BK longer than DL, it is also absolutely valid to ask why US people have been paid less than their peers at DL and have been far slower to recover salary.

As much as you want to hide behind the effects of BK, the simple reality is that DL employees have seen the fastest growth in compensation and are now paid WELL BEYOND their peers at AA and UA.

one more time is appropriate for the hard of comprehension.... DL spent ONE BILLION MORE DOLLARS on salary, benefits, and profit sharing on 33,000 fewer employees than AA/US in 2014. and the comparison between US only employees is even more significant since US didn't go thru BK with AA.

as much as you may hate it, those are facts. the more you call me a fraud for proclaiming what are clear facts only shows who is the real liar and only provides more opportunities for me to come up with yet another factoid to add to my VERY LONG list of DL employee advantages.
 
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