AAG had 113,300 employees as of Dec. 31. That’s up nearly 3,000

[700UW]

See once again you dont know the full story.
 
The reason we got him three days back, we had the voice recorder pulled and the pilot told him via the headset "door, lights, out, brakes off,clear to push"
 
The door lights werent out as the L2 door was open.  And from the pushback tug you werent able to see the if the jetway was still attached.
 
Maybe before you spout of your idiocy you should get the facts.
 
Only stupid one is you when you dont have the facts of what and why it happened.
 
It also involved the plane was pushed off the gate once, the APU died, the plane was towed back to the gate and had to have an air start done.  A lot of confusion going on.
 
See lots of mitigating factors.  And there is more that happened also.
 
And who made you judge and jury?
 
Go back to the water cooler and spread your Fox News talking points and listen to the Koch Brothers.

 

[700UW]

   Not trying to hijack thread, since my first post here reference why DL outsourced HMV's , then got dragged into other topics but #1 I don't know anyone with 45 years of seniority at DL that works weekends, unless it's a personal choice . #2 I know people who have damaged aircraft and aircraft parts that are still working at DL. Now, back to the matter at hand, for someone who labels a topic, " No Personal Attacks", remember, what goes around, comes around!
See ya' at the DL threads.....700!

I have a good friend who works the ramp down there, I am going to text him later today and ask, we will see if you are telling the truth, or if the person chooses to take those days off.
 
And the union doesnt set the days off, that would be the company.
 
And I didnt start this topic nor does it say no personal attacks in this thread.
 
A mind is a terrible thing to waste.
 
Dont let the facts get in your way.

 

[WorldTraveler]

oh savior of the common man,

your story is touching.

now tell us one that involves AA.

after all, we have been told that USAir doesn't exist any more.

meanwhile, not only there are DL employees that have damaged equipment and retained their job because DL is capable of doing an investigation but there are employees in other parts of the company that have made serious issues and managed to learn to fix the problem.

if you don't think a few wrong keystroke on a computer can do far more financial damage than what can happen on the ramp, then you have no idea about the rest of the industry.

those who want to argue that AA employees are higher paid than DL employee should take a look at each carrier's 2014 10K annual report to the SEC where they will find that


AA spent $8,508 million on salary and related expenses for 94,400 mainline and 113,000 total employees

while DL $8,120 million on salary and related expenses for 79,655 total consolidated employees.

despite the charge here that AA's workforce is the most senior in the industry, DL employees make considerably more.

but I'm sure just like the DOT data, some people will find all kinds of flaws in this data because they don't like the story.

 

[southwind]

I have a good friend who works the ramp down there, I am going to text him later today and ask, we will see if you are telling the truth, or if the person chooses to take those days off.
 
And the union doesnt set the days off, that would be the company.
 
And I didnt start this topic nor does it say no personal attacks in this thread.
 
A mind is a terrible thing to waste.
 
Dont let the facts get in your way.

Contact whomever you like, I don't "PERSONALLY" know anyone who has damaged DL property and has gotten fired for it!
Oh, so if a topic doesn't specifically state "No personal attacks", it's all good?.............Game on, then !

 

[700UW]

And Kevin who works the ramp has said different,I will take his word over yours since he is on the ramp and you are in an engine shop.

 

[Real tired]

Let's look at some of the phrases used here:

Investigation... Help...Representation... A hearing... A Grievance procedure *and* time limits on how long the discipline could be in their file...Overtime equalization...

DL employees have none of that...

Germane to this topic; there's gonna be a whole lotta new people showing up to your gates. Look out for them, and each other...

DL Maintenance DOES have something all others don't.  The scabs of Northwest.
 
Never forget.

 

[topDawg]

It's great that AA wants to increase employment and help the middle class - where DL wants to outsource and drive wages down

Lol
 

you can call it whatever you want but when a company within an industry has tens of thousands more employees than its competitors that are supposed to cost the same amount in total compensation but generates nearly the same amount of revenue, it is NOT sustainable for AA to continue to maintain pay parity with its competitors but generate very little additional revenue.

AAL group's total operating revenue for 2014 was $42.7M vs $40.3M for DL group which had 80K employees and UA group which generated $39M and had 84K employees.

there simply is not enough of a difference between the level of outsourcing between AA, DL, and UA to explain how DL and UA can generate within a couple percent of the amount of revenue that AA does but with 30K less employees.

like it or not, but there will be deep cuts at AA in the near future to bring AA's employee numbers in line with its competitors.

all data can be found in carrier annual reports which were released this month.

Again, AA can't just do whatever they want. It doesn't work that way. Its called scope. I know you don't understand because you have no idea how an airline union works. 
 

blah, blah.

AA and US' level of outsourcing is now nearly identical to DL's... which is exactly what happened when DL bought NW that had decimated its maintenance workforce.

you can harp on the outsourcing wagon all you want but AA is in the VERY SAME position of outsourcing as DL... the difference is that DL is BRINGING work back in - via the engine jobs and mainline aircraft additions while AA is outsourcing overhauls that AA has long done inhouse and SHRINKING its mainline fleet.

yes, we know that AA and the TWU kept headcount up.

problem is that AA employees expect that AA will pay industry standard wages now.... that is what they gave the pilots and FAs.

AA can't pay industry standard wages (or DL scale plus 7 even without profit sharing) and sustain 30K additional employees.

given that DL employees are well above their peers at AA and UA in terms of average compensation as well as they have seen faster and larger increases in total compensation, your dirt throwing can only be seen as the spilled milk whining that it is.



if you had a clue about economics, you would be able to read expense statements and figure it out.

I sure don't want the good frontline employees of AA to get hurt but you really need to learn a lesson or two.

and once again, you are comparing a joint Delta/Northwest to a separated US/AA. What happens if AA and its mechanics (and its ramp) agree to take the better scopes of the separated work groups? If that happens AA will be 10-15% below what Delta outsources. 
 
Apples to apples please. 
 

Makes you wonder, with the outsourcing of HMV's why in the world DL has hired close to 2000 maintenance personnel over the last 5 years and continually makes a profit for the company!
Maybe they finally figured out, doing HMV's in-house was costing them money and instead decided to bring work in that would generate revenue and secure jobs in the future.
Don't really see a company ever outsourcing work, that can actually make money for them, so I'm feeling pretty good without a contract, thank you very much.

And congrats on hiring more employees! I consider it a good thing for the aviation industry as a whole!

Two things
1) my bet is you wouldn't be singing the same tune if they would have dumped the 219s too. 
2) Delta is the only US carrier of the big 4 that doesn't do at least one type of overhaul in-house. So you are saying that Delta, with much lower costs, can't make it work? lol okay. 
3) Care to explain why Delta changes vendors like its nothing? you don't generally do so if you are happy with the costs. 
 

Why does DL have DGS and other contractors working along side of DL mechanics, instead of all being DL mechanics?

I know
no scope. 
 

Uh yea, ok. I'll take your word for it. Uh huh, sure.

It depends completely on what color you wear. 
Blue gets away with a lot of stuff. Anyone remember that 73G those guys ran off the hill in Atlanta 2(?) years ago? AFAIK they still have their jobs. That airplane was down for a while getting fixed. 
Purple it is completely different. 
 
(FWIW TechOps wears blue, ACS is purple.) 
 

At DL Kevin?
 
In 1988 I worked for UA in TPA and the junior full timer was 27 years.
southworst is pretty clueless on seniority in the Florida Cities.

yeah Florida is where all the high timers go. 
 

DL Maintenance DOES have something all others don't.  The scabs of Northwest.
 
Never forget.

and on the ramp too FWIW. 

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

See once again you dont know the full story.
 
The reason we got him three days back, we had the voice recorder pulled and the pilot told him via the headset "door, lights, out, brakes off,clear to push"
 
The door lights werent out as the L2 door was open.  And from the pushback tug you werent able to see the if the jetway was still attached.
 
Maybe before you spout of your idiocy you should get the facts.
 
Only stupid one is you when you dont have the facts of what and why it happened.
 
It also involved the plane was pushed off the gate once, the APU died, the plane was towed back to the gate and had to have an air start done.  A lot of confusion going on.
 
See lots of mitigating factors.  And there is more that happened also.
 
And who made you judge and jury?
 
Go back to the water cooler and spread your Fox News talking points and listen to the Koch Brothers.

That is no excuse.
 
The person doing the pushback has a responsibility to observe the area around the aircraft to verify it is safe to move. If he has limited visibility it is his responsibility to get off his lazy ass and go check. If he made ANY effort at all he would have noticed it. A jet bridge is hard to miss.
 
If he followed the instruction of a pilot stuck in a cockpit with little visibility and didn't LOOK himself before moving a multimillion dollar aircraft then that was an act of sheer stupidity.
 
Leave it to a stooge like you to defend the indefensible.

 

[Glenn Quagmire]

That is no excuse.
 
The person doing the pushback has a responsibility to observe the area around the aircraft to verify it is safe to move. If he has limited visibility it is his responsibility to get off his lazy ass and go check. If he made ANY effort at all he would have noticed it. A jet bridge is hard to miss.
 
If he followed the instruction of a pilot stuck in a cockpit with little visibility and didn't LOOK himself before moving a multimillion dollar aircraft then that was an act of sheer stupidity.
 
Leave it to a stooge like you to defend the indefensible.

Have you ever pushed back or taxied an aircraft?

You never leave a tug after a pilot says "brakes off, clear to push".

It is painfully obvious that you have no clue how aircraft movement operations work on a ramp or in a cockpit.

 

[topDawg]

That is no excuse.
 
The person doing the pushback has a responsibility to observe the area around the aircraft to verify it is safe to move. If he has limited visibility it is his responsibility to get off his lazy ass and go check. If he made ANY effort at all he would have noticed it. A jet bridge is hard to miss.
 
If he followed the instruction of a pilot stuck in a cockpit with little visibility and didn't LOOK himself before moving a multimillion dollar aircraft then that was an act of sheer stupidity.
 
Leave it to a stooge like you to defend the indefensible.

Never been in a cockpit eh? 
They have door open/closed indicators fyi. So its as simple as looking at his/her instruments which i fully expect a pilot to be able to do.   
 

Have you ever pushed back or taxied an aircraft?

You never leave a tug after a pilot says "brakes off, clear to push".

It is painfully obvious that you have no clue how aircraft movement operations work on a ramp or in a cockpit.

this

 

[WorldTraveler]

ok...dawg, let's hold the number with the percentage of outsourcing that AA/US does... I'm not sure why you think maintenance should get a pass (actually I do since you don't want to "contaminate" AA's low level of outsourcing with US') but if you want to hold out the level of outsourcing, then you better prove that the number will decrease.

Sadly, Parker proved at US that has no respect for keeping maintenance inhouse... if he did, US wouldn't have the highest level of total outsourcing.

and regardless of what number you come up with, AA doesn't do anywhere near the level of insourcing that DL does.

clearly DL believes in Tech Ops to deliver a product that AA, UA and US do not or they don't bother to pursue that work... and if that is the case, then there has to be a very good explanation as to why they do not.

DL's level of insourcing amounts to 20-25% of the total amount DL spends to maintain its own fleet which means that DL's NET level of outsourcing is really in the upper teens.

but you would never be willing to factor in that level of insourcing into the equation because it doesn't tell a story of you as being taken advantage by big bad DL.

 

[topDawg]

ok...dawg, let's hold the number with the percentage of outsourcing that AA/US does... I'm not sure why you think maintenance should get a pass (actually I do since you don't want to "contaminate" AA's low level of outsourcing with US') but if you want to hold out the level of outsourcing, then you better prove that the number will decrease.

I don't have to prove anything. Its called being logical. I hold US and AA as separate because they are just that. Till they have a union, much less a JCBA, it is impossible to know what will happen with their outsourcing. 

You might be right. They might shut TULE/TAESL and PIT down and and become a line only airline. 
They might take Delta+7 and get to keep the AA scope. 
 
Its very hard to know exactly what will happen there. 

Sadly, Parker proved at US that has no respect for keeping maintenance inhouse... if he did, US wouldn't have the highest level of total outsourcing.

Not apples to apples. 
Parker has never, to my knowledge operated an airline making the money AA is and will be making. It becomes very hard to get concession when you are making 5 Billion a year
 
it becomes VERY hard to get those concession when you are doing so already operating the larger of the two airlines at 35% outsourcing level. Its going to be hard for AA or the TWU to get its members to go to 50% outsourcing like US when they already know the airline can operate very profitably at 35%.  

 

and regardless of what number you come up with, AA doesn't do anywhere near the level of insourcing that DL does.

That doesn't mean a damn thing in what we are talking about here.. Not even a little bit. 
 
American's employees have zero control over that. It is simple up to AA management if they want to operate as a MRO or not. AA has done so in the past and been very good at it. Over time management has pulled that back. TWU or its members can't do anything about that. All they have control over if how much AA work AA does. 

 
*note I have seen people like overspeed say that is all they need to worry about. IMO I find that very foolish. Clearly you need good scope but if I were you and your leaders I would try my hardest to get management to invest in you MX and try to pick up as much extra work as they can. Its a win-win. You have more work, they make more money. 
Makes you much more valuable.*

clearly DL believes in Tech Ops to deliver a product that AA, UA and US do not or they don't bother to pursue that work... and if that is the case, then there has to be a very good explanation as to why they do not.

No there hasn't. Anyone can see how much Delta saved by sending HMVs out. (or better yet how much more they are paying) just have to look. (hint, trying looking over the numbers in Tony's letter) 
And of course SEC filings and such. 
 
 
As it is Delta sending that work out had much more to do with the "We all have to take cuts" idea during BK (only way to get the pilots to buy into taking cuts) and it was and still is the cool thing to do on wall street. 
 
but this is on the AA board and an American thread. If you want to re-hash this discussion start a thread on the Delta side. Be happy to talk about it there. 
 

DL's level of insourcing amounts to 20-25% of the total amount DL spends to maintain its own fleet which means that DL's NET level of outsourcing is really in the upper teens.

Doesn't work that way sorry. 
 
 

but you would never be willing to factor in that level of insourcing into the equation because it doesn't tell a story of you as being taken advantage by big bad DL.

I don't see it that way at all. I find the MRO work great. Awesome. Fantastic.
 
but it all starts with Delta. Insourcing doesn't cover up for outsourcing. (and nothing pisses me off more than Delta outsourcing work (HMVs, winglets) and yet some how they can do them for airlines like LAN, Hawaiian, UPS, etc. etc. etc. that means that a bunch of executives at other airlines are stupid (fat chance) or that Delta just doesn't want to do that work on the Delta fleet in-house. (and considering I have been told as such by people high up in TechOps, I'll go with that, not what you and outsider has to say.) 
 
but again this is on the AA board and an American thread. If you want to re-hash this discussion start a thread on the Delta side. Be happy to talk about it there. 

 

[700UW]

US doesnt farmout 50% of its maintenance, they can farmout 50% of billable hours of heavy, they cant outsource line, they do outsource most component work after chapter 11 part 2.

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

clearly DL believes in Tech Ops to deliver a product that AA, UA and US do not or they don't bother to pursue that work... and if that is the case, then there has to be a very good explanation as to why they do not.
 

 
UA Tech Ops does insource customer work and actively pursues more - you clearly don't know what you're talking about

 

[WorldTraveler]

US doesnt farmout 50% of its maintenance, they can farmout 50% of billable hours of heavy, they cant outsource line, they do outsource most component work after chapter 11 part 2.

wait... you want to argue that billable hours is the standard for a contract but refuse to acknowledge that the total value of outsourcing is not a valid comparison?
the only way you could come to that conclusion is if US mechanics make far less doing inhouse maintenance than does MROs that do the work. The math simply doesn't work to argue that billable hours at US is an acceptable standard but total value of outsourcing is not.

and as much as you want to acknowledge it, component and engine maintenance has far higher profit margins which is precisely why US' is paying more to send work out than if it had the capability in house.

but engine and component maintenance is highly specialized so US decided to get out of that business and US' unions have been happy to hold onto a red herring measurement for outsourcing instead of use a measurement that has the potential to increase wages for US mechanics.


 

UA Tech Ops does insource customer work and actively pursues more - you clearly don't know what you're talking about

of course they do... but nowhere near in the volume that DL does.

perhaps you can tell us the value of UA's MRO revenues.

dawg,
the only reason why you don't want to consider Tech Ops MRO revenue is because it blunts and eliminates your arguments that DL is manipulating maintenance work to hurt its employees.

you can't argue that AA employees have no control over MRO work but AA mgmt. does and yet fail to acknowledge that the same thing exists at DL - where DL has chosen to bring in enough MRO work equal to 1/4 of the value of what DL spends to maintain its own fleet.

for someone who claims to have business degrees, it is frightening that you fail to understand the principle of specialization and insourcing instead of trying to do everything inhouse. It is a basic principle of the industry revolution. in the pre-industrial revolution, one person tried to do everything while post industrial revolution it was recognized that one person or company can create more economic value by specializing in one function and doing it not only for himself but also for others.

for you to fail to understand tht DL is doing that principle and creating more economic wealth not only for itself but also for its employees is beyond frightening.

and again, let's see what AA actually ends up with, but given that the new APA and APFA contracts ended up with less total compensation than DL and yet they are allowing AA to outsource far more of AA's flying than DL is doing, it is beyond reasonable for you or anyone else to believe that anything different will happen for AA maintenance.