AE/Envoy Pilots Reject AIP

[mwa]

I do think the idea of entitlement extends to the flying public as a rule - they think flying is a fundamental right like healthcare and cell phones

 

[john john]

I think it was Mach85 who has previously posted that the APA was willing to offer cut-rate hourly rates for smaller planes but that the big issue for the APA is that none of the other workgroups were also willing to offer a B-scale (FAs, maintenance and fleet) and that the pilots weren't willing to be the only mainline workgroup working for American Eagle wages.   Obviously, the smaller planes' economics don't work with just the pilots making cheap wages - it takes the entire village working for Eagle wages to make 76-seaters economical.

The Passenger Service Agents at mainline have seen their jobs go to Eagle wages at a developing rate. Work for Eagle or a contractor or get layoff!
Jobs’ going to contractors creating job stagnation while this is similar to other work groups it goes on with the Passenger Service Agents unchecked

 

[700UW]

John John,

I have asked you a question four times in the US Fleet thread, you are ignoring it

 

[eolesen]

The Passenger Service Agents at mainline have seen their jobs go to Eagle wages at a developing rate. Work for Eagle or a contractor or get layoff!
Jobs’ going to contractors creating job stagnation while this is similar to other work groups it goes on with the Passenger Service Agents unchecked

You've made that claim before, so do you care to back it up?

Exactly how many and which mainline stations or jobs have been shifted to Eagle or proposed to shift in the past two years?

Specifics, please... not the typical CWA threat of what might happen. AA's had that flexibility for decades, and the only times that card has been played is when the station is being closed to mainline altogether.

The only thing that comes close is bag drop staffing, which in my opinion is no different than putting a Skycap behind a desk.

CWA hasn't managed to prevent US from using Skycaps, or forced them to be insourced, have they?...

 

[john john]

CWA hasn't managed to prevent US from using Skycaps, or forced them to be insourced, have they?...

YES do your homework
It's getting pretty clear that you like making big issues out of things you have no experience with... makes you a perfect candidate to be management if you're not already one.

 

[jimntx]

Flight attendants are paid by 50-seat blocks (or any portion thereof.) On a 75 seater, there are two FAs. On a 375 seater, there are required 8. On a theoretical 1500-seat airplane, the regs require 30. Their work load does not "expand" beyond 50 seats. This, of course, disregards any real attempt at good customer service.

I know what you meant, but what you posted is not accurate. We are not paid by 50-seat blocks. The 50 seat rule has nothing to do with level of service or pay. It's an FAA staffing requirement. It doesn't matter whether there are 101 seats or 150 seats, the requirement is 3 f/as. At 151-200 seats, 4 f/as are required. Saying that we are paid by the 50-seat block is as incorrect as saying a pilot's rate of pay is determined by the number of takeoffs and landings per trip.

We are paid by the flight hour based upon years of service as a f/a with a top out at 15 years. (Someone who started as a gate agent then switched to Flight Service gets no "pay rate" credit for the agent years--just company benefits.) It doesn't matter whether I am flying on a S80 (with only a beverage service) or a 777 (with a meal service, 2 beverage services, and a snack), my hourly rate of pay is the same if it is designated as a Domestic flight. If I am on an International flight leg(trained but has never happened), I do get a $2.00/hr override. For instance, DFW-MIA-MEX-DFW. The Intl override would only be paid for the MIA-MEX leg, and maybe the MEX-DFW leg, I'm not sure there. I know I don't get paid an override if I am flying out of DFW to any Mexico destination.) At AA, Canada and Mexico are considered (for pay and qualification purposes) part of the domestic system because you don't have to fly over water to get there (with the exception of MIA to Mexico, of course). That foolishness will end when we finally merge the Domestic and International f/a corps.

 

[nycbusdriver]

I know what you meant, but what you posted is not accurate. We are not paid by 50-seat blocks. The 50 seat rule has nothing to do with level of service or pay. It's an FAA staffing requirement. It doesn't matter whether there are 101 seats or 150 seats, the requirement is 3 f/as. At 151-200 seats, 4 f/as are required. Saying that we are paid by the 50-seat block is as incorrect as saying a pilot's rate of pay is determined by the number of takeoffs and landings per trip.

We are paid by the flight hour based upon years of service as a f/a with a top out at 15 years. (Someone who started as a gate agent then switched to Flight Service gets no "pay rate" credit for the agent years--just company benefits.) It doesn't matter whether I am flying on a S80 (with only a beverage service) or a 777 (with a meal service, 2 beverage services, and a snack), my hourly rate of pay is the same if it is designated as a Domestic flight. If I am on an International flight leg(trained but has never happened), I do get a $2.00/hr override. For instance, DFW-MIA-MEX-DFW. The Intl override would only be paid for the MIA-MEX leg, and maybe the MEX-DFW leg, I'm not sure there. I know I don't get paid an override if I am flying out of DFW to any Mexico destination.) At AA, Canada and Mexico are considered (for pay and qualification purposes) part of the domestic system because you don't have to fly over water to get there (with the exception of MIA to Mexico, of course). That foolishness will end when we finally merge the Domestic and International f/a corps.

 
And I agree with what you say, too, but my point was that companies are required to have a higher cabin attendant cost in bigger airplanes.  That cost may be divided between 2 people, or 22 people, but the company cannot staff a 330 with 3 flight attendants to save costs.  
 
However, the company can, and has, staffed that same 330 with two pilots, instead of three, (flying back-of-the-clock schedules) to save the cockpit costs.  They continue to do so with the 757.
 
Bottom line: The company cannot spread the cost of cabin staffing simply by rolling out a bigger airplane.  However, they can do that with the cockpit costs.  they could theoretically run an A350 with 400+ seats to Shannon through the middle of the night with two pilots, and thereby spread very thin the cockpit costs over all those same seats being served by 8+ flight attendants.

 

[eolesen]

YES do your homework
It's getting pretty clear that you like making big issues out of things you have no experience with... makes you a perfect candidate to be management if you're not already one.

So cute, repeating back what's been said about you as a way to try and deflect...

Post the specifics, Skippy. Otherwise, it sounds just like FUD mongering on your part.

 

[IORFA]

You've made that claim before, so do you care to back it up?Exactly how many and which mainline stations or jobs have been shifted to Eagle or proposed to shift in the past two years?Specifics, please... not the typical CWA threat of what might happen. AA's had that flexibility for decades, and the only times that card has been played is when the station is being closed to mainline altogether.The only thing that comes close is bag drop staffing, which in my opinion is no different than putting a Skycap behind a desk.CWA hasn't managed to prevent US from using Skycaps, or forced them to be insourced, have they?...

I'll tell you PDX was outsourced to Eagle and mainline never left. In fact, Eagle never surfaced either. Eagle does the ramp and above wing as well. Never seen an Eagle here yet.

 

[IORFA]

I know what you meant, but what you posted is not accurate. We are not paid by 50-seat blocks. The 50 seat rule has nothing to do with level of service or pay. It's an FAA staffing requirement. It doesn't matter whether there are 101 seats or 150 seats, the requirement is 3 f/as. At 151-200 seats, 4 f/as are required. Saying that we are paid by the 50-seat block is as incorrect as saying a pilot's rate of pay is determined by the number of takeoffs and landings per trip.
We are paid by the flight hour based upon years of service as a f/a with a top out at 15 years. (Someone who started as a gate agent then switched to Flight Service gets no "pay rate" credit for the agent years--just company benefits.) It doesn't matter whether I am flying on a S80 (with only a beverage service) or a 777 (with a meal service, 2 beverage services, and a snack), my hourly rate of pay is the same if it is designated as a Domestic flight. If I am on an International flight leg(trained but has never happened), I do get a $2.00/hr override. For instance, DFW-MIA-MEX-DFW. The Intl override would only be paid for the MIA-MEX leg, and maybe the MEX-DFW leg, I'm not sure there. I know I don't get paid an override if I am flying out of DFW to any Mexico destination.) At AA, Canada and Mexico are considered (for pay and qualification purposes) part of the domestic system because you don't have to fly over water to get there (with the exception of MIA to Mexico, of course). That foolishness will end when we finally merge the Domestic and International f/a corps.

Jim, it is a $3.00 override. In your example, at AA the only MEX route paid international rates is MIA-MEX-MIA. Any other MEX flight is domestic. The only reason for this is that it is cheaper to pay more and fly a more direct route over the gulf.

 

[john john]

I'll tell you PDX was outsourced to Eagle and mainline never left. In fact, Eagle never surfaced either. Eagle does the ramp and above wing as well. Never seen an Eagle here yet.

I am sure there are many more

 

[737823]

john john do you know the unionistas in BOS and MIA?

Josh

 

[eolesen]

I'll tell you PDX was outsourced to Eagle and mainline never left. In fact, Eagle never surfaced either. Eagle does the ramp and above wing as well. Never seen an Eagle here yet.

Since john john can't use Google, and probably doesn't know how to pull flight schedules, here's the actual list and current number of mainline departures:

ONT (4) RNO (4) SMF (4)
BDL (5) MEM (5)
CMH (6)
PDX (7)

But hey, I'm sure he'll be able to tell what other stations would be on the bubble for closing. Really.

 

[jimntx]

Actually, I've run across a number of stations that are now staffed as AE or just outsourced to contract labor.  For the AE stations the ground people were given a choice of taking a cut in pay or resigning.  I still don't understand why the agents keep voting down representation.

 

[IORFA]

Actually, I've run across a number of stations that are now staffed as AE.  The ground people were given a choice of taking a cut in pay or resigning.  I still don't understand why the agents keep voting down representation.

Exactly. Eolesen doesn't think it happens. Most in PDX took a transfer, retired or furlough. Only 2 agreed to work for Eagle. One just came back off furlough just to get in on the merger hoping that mainline agents come back since US is all mainline. Above wing at least. Here's hoping that she was right. The best part was they expected the former agents to train their replacements. HAHAHAHA. Right. They should absolutely vote in the union.