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AFA IS A FRAUD

Nor have I! The posts I have read from those who defend the TRO have been to give the judge the review time.

The posts against the TRO have been that there is no overlap, the NLA takes precedence, the RLA self-help is over-riding, the judge is corrupt, or whatever!

Little or no reasoning - just emotions. The courts are OK; but only if they interpret the law to suit me.


What emotions? Plenty of reasoning here. This judge knew that this case was coming his way for several weeks and he didn't do his homework? Yeah right! This judge needs to review this case? Yeah right! This idiot judge is just stalling hoping the AFA leadership will cave(based on previous situations they probably will). The judge knows he has no legal authority to block this strike. The judge is out of order!
 
Bob, the Princess never "let facts get in the way of a good rant that is meaningless....". Typically, her rant is based on nothing but "emotions"!
 
What emotions? Plenty of reasoning here. This judge knew that this case was coming his way for several weeks and he didn't do his homework? Yeah right! This judge needs to review this case? Yeah right! This idiot judge is just stalling hoping the AFA leadership will cave(based on previous situations they probably will). The judge knows he has no legal authority to block this strike. The judge is out of order!

Judges don't know they are getting cases. First the BK judge had to rule. Then an appeal had to be filed. Once the appeal is filed then a judge on the court is randomly selected to hear the case. RANDOMLY SELECTED. He then reads the briefs that are submitted, hears the oral argument and then goes and does his own research of the law and tries to make a decision.
 
Yep. Judges are randomly assigned, and there's so much going on in the lower courts that the higher courts couldn't possibly do their homework in advance unless it is an extremely high profile case such as Terry Schaivo, Gore vs. Bush, or a death row appeal in the week prior to their execution date.

If judges did do their homework before getting a case, then the system has failed you even more than you think, since they've formed an opinion before a single argument can be made in their courtroom, and are supposed to be impartial until all the facts are presented.
 
Go ahead spin this thing as much as you want,Pro-management types! You're still wrong and you know it! It doesn't take a rocket scientist to read the RLA,Bankruptcy laws, and the Norris-Laguardia Act to see that the Judge is out of order!
 
Go ahead spin this thing as much as you want,Pro-management types! You're still wrong and you know it! It doesn't take a rocket scientist to read the RLA,Bankruptcy laws, and the Norris-Laguardia Act to see that the Judge is out of order!

Princess, I am not pro-management. However I did work in law before I took my retirment job as a FA. (Much less stress.) This is not an open-and-shut case as you make it out to be. There is a conflict of laws in this matter. The BK code and the RLA. The judge has to try and reconcile them along with their stated purposes. This is also a case of first impression on how the 1113 motion effects issues under the RLA.

I have said it before and I will repeat it here. I think that the merits favor AFA's being allowed to proceed with CHAOS(tm). But the decision will not be easy to reach or to write.
 
Go ahead spin this thing as much as you want,Pro-management types! You're still wrong and you know it! It doesn't take a rocket scientist to read the RLA,Bankruptcy laws, and the Norris-Laguardia Act to see that the Judge is out of order!

You know what they say about opening your mouth and removing all doubt? You and Bob Owens just keep doing it.

You (and Bob Owens) expounding on the law applicable to this dispute is as comical as me explaining how to fix RR Trents. You see, turbine engine repair isn't among my skills. And analyzing this case of first impression certainly isn't among yours.

And when posters talk about this Clinton-appointed latino federal judge as being on the take - that conjures up images of complete ignorance. I'd expect some toothless uneducated fool like ScabMasterPTO to make comments like that, not well-trained professional aircraft mechanics like you and Bob Owens.

As much as I often disagree with hp-fa, their post above is dead-on.

I, too, have posted numerous times that my personal view is that any work group suffering under imposed contract terms like the NW FAs should be immediately free to exercise self-help. But that doesn't mean there's no rational argument to support a contrary decision.

What the perpetually disgruntled fail to comprehend is that the answer to reconciling two conflicting statutes is often not found in any of the words of the statutes themselves. Yes, you can quote chapter and verse from the RLA, the Norris/LaGuardia Act and the US Bankruptcy Code but in doing so you may very well be missing the answer to this dispute.

But what the hell - you fix airplanes for a living, and thus know all about reconciling two conflicting federal statutory schemes, right? Not only could you and your perpetually disgruntled co-workers make better executive decisions at AMR than the paid management - but you also know more about solving federal disputes than this federal judge. That's an amazing breadth of knowledge you got there. You know what they say about jack of all trades . . .
 
Princess, I am not pro-management. However I did work in law before I took my retirment job as a FA. (Much less stress.) This is not an open-and-shut case as you make it out to be. There is a conflict of laws in this matter. The BK code and the RLA. The judge has to try and reconcile them along with their stated purposes. This is also a case of first impression on how the 1113 motion effects issues under the RLA.

I have said it before and I will repeat it here. I think that the merits favor AFA's being allowed to proceed with CHAOS(tm). But the decision will not be easy to reach or to write.

As someone who has practiced law, could you please explain where the conflict between the laws exists?

And before everyone else starts to flame, that was not said in sarcasm, I am asking this honestly, and straight forward.

I have been back and forth on another thread thats starting to read almost like this one. Yet I have yet to find the answer to what should be a very simple question. Yes, I've heard they contradict, yes I've heard they overlap, my question is where? What sectional refrence stands in dispute? Which law contradicts the other?

No I am not a lawyer. I am highly educated and I am well versed in both the RLA and Title 11. I found neither of these articles difficult to read or understand. And from this admitted non legal type, I have yet to find anything that stands in dispute, I have yet to read where someone points and says "thats the wording, thats the clause, thats the paragraph that contradicts the other"

JMHO

NWA used Title 11 to abrogate the FAs contract, all perfectly legal. However, in doing so, they violated the RLA and as such the FAs should be free to strike.

There is nothing in the RLA granting special dispensation to parties in bankruptcy, nor is there anything in Title 11 which speaks to enjoining strikes.


So wheres the "RUB"?

I'm open to being educated, but telling me I'm wrong or don't understand because I'm not a lawyer, or continualy posting theres a contradiction/overlap without some sort of refrence isn't going to cut it.

So if you're in the know, please share.
 
I wasn't a lawyer, I was litigation paralegal. I drafted pleadings, motions and all sorts of stuff. I also did a lot of both factual and legal research to support the client's position. I even drafted appeal briefs as both appellant and appellee. I have a good understanding of the rules of civil procedure.

Bankruptcy is a special court and is outside the normal civil process. It has its own judges who do nothing but bankruptcy. Bankruptcy judges are an inferior form of judge compared to what most folks think of as a "federal judge."

Conflict of Laws is a large area of law that basically tries to reconcile laws of differing jurisdictions and purposes. In the issue before this judge he has bankruptcy (the orderly liquidation or reorganization of a debtor that affects both the debtor and creditors of differing priorities) and labor law that, in this case, is under the provisions of the Railway Labor Act. The RLA is designed to minimize labor disruptions in large-scale transportation where a disruption could or would adversely affect the national interests in rapid and predictable transportation of persons and goods.

A true federal judge does not have original subject matter jurisdiction of bankruptcy cases. The court only obtains jurisdiction after an appeal is filed. The court does have original subject matter jurisdiction of matters relating to the RLA.

The RLA spells out a number of processes that must be followed before an organized labor group may strike. However, the RLA does not address how bankruptcy effects the provisions of the RLA related to a work groups ability to take self-help if a legally binding agreement made by parties subject to the RLA is modified under the provisions of the bankruptcy code (The 1113 motion to force a change of the FA's contract.) Now you no longer have a contract that was agreed to by the parties and was imposed, legally, by a bankruptcy judge under the provisions of the bankruptcy code. Does that imposition of the contract automatically allow a group not automatically allowed to perform self-help without jumping though a lot of legal hoops to now skip jumping though all those hoops and take immediate self-help action?

There is also the matter that this is, by all accounts, a case of first impression before any court. The judge has the statutes available and they are in conflict. The judge has the case law related to both issues available to him to see the rationale utilized in both areas of law to reach decisions. However, no court has had this conflict presented before and he is on new ground. As a given, no judge likes to be overturned on appeal. The judge wants to come to a conclusion that the judge believes that an appellate court will agree with and not overturn the decision and then send the matter back down to the court for further action consistent with the decision of the appellate court. The judge therefore wants to make the right decision the first time and must document in the official court record how the court made its decision and why that is the correct decision. Let's face it; the judge knows the case is going up on appeal. This is also important to the parties. Why? Because the relative rights and positions of the parties in the appeal are based on whether they are the appellants or the appellees. The appeals court is supposed to give some consideration to upholding the ruling of the lower court, so being the appellee is a preferred position for the parties.

This is a very long, but short, primer on what’s going on in this case. I hope it helps a bit.
 
NWA used Title 11 to abrogate the FAs contract, all perfectly legal. However, in doing so, they violated the RLA and as such the FAs should be free to strike.

There is nothing in the RLA granting special dispensation to parties in bankruptcy, nor is there anything in Title 11 which speaks to enjoining strikes.
So wheres the "RUB"?

hp_fa and Piney did yeoman's work at explaining it.

What you and others are looking for (direct contradictory language) Isn't In There. But that doesn't mean there's no conflict.

The RUB described by your words, quoted above. Title 11 permits debtors to impose terms on unions. As you yourself point out - "all perfectly legal" under the Bankruptcy Code. And in the rest of your first sentence, you said "However, in doing so, they violated the RLA" - well, the two statutes don't explain whether the RLA procedures and prerequisites on self-help are applicable when a contract is abrogated by a Bankruptcy Judge.

Sure, you can assume that abrogation allows immediate self-help. The bankruptcy judge agreed. Problem is, he may be right and he may be wrong, despite the bleating by some that there is only one possible answer to this dispute.

Judges cannot enjoin a "lawful strike." But they can enjoin one where the RLA's procedures and prerequisites are not met. Ask the APA at AA which had to pay over $20 million to AA before the balance was forgiven as part of the 2003 concessions. That $20+ million wiped out the APA Treasury.

In the second sentence written by you and quoted above, you admit that neither statute addresses this dispute.

BINGO. That's The Rub.

This may be a legal strike (in which case Judge Marrero erred) or it may be an unlawful strike - since the release from mediation and 30 day cooling off periods haven't started (much less expired).

As hp_fa and Piney explained - this situation has never come up. Ever. No precedent to look at. As an aside - statutes aren't precedent. Previous cases involving similar disputes under the same statutes would be precedent. And there is none.

Even if Judge Marrero is incorrect - and his injunction is in fact illegal - where's the harm? The NWA FAs themselves didn't think they needed immediate self-help. Foolishly, they waited for the Bankruptcy Judge to tell them they could strike. Then they said they could wait 15 more days because their prior union made a foolish commitment to wait. Then, in what looks like a desperate delaying tactic - the FAs gave NWA another 10 days because of the UK water/carryon insanity that was immediately imported here.

If the FAs can wait 25 days from abrogation to strike, then they can wait until this appeal has run its course, since it's obvious they're in no real hurry to strike anyway. One excuse after another for delaying their self-help. They seem to like saying "strike" but they don't appear to have the stomach for actually striking. And I thought that scabs were spineless.
 
I, too, have posted numerous times that my personal view is that any work group suffering under imposed contract terms like the NW FAs should be immediately free to exercise self-help. But that doesn't mean there's no rational argument to support a contrary decision.

What the perpetually disgruntled fail to comprehend is that the answer to reconciling two conflicting statutes is often not found in any of the words of the statutes themselves. Yes, you can quote chapter and verse from the RLA, the Norris/LaGuardia Act and the US Bankruptcy Code but in doing so you may very well be missing the answer to this dispute.
People without legal backgrounds here should perhaps take note that the few people here with legal backgrounds are all saying the same thing about the situation (summarized by FWAAA in the above quote).
 
To summerize the real question before the judge it is this.

Do the provisions of the RLA relating to a contractual agreement, previously reached and ratified by the parties to that agreement, that restrict the rights of an organized labor group to any form of self-help survive the abrogation of that ratified contract by a bankruptcy judge in connection to a motion for relief filed under Rule 1113 of the Federal Bankruptcy Code?
 
Thanks Piney, Hp, and FWA.

All three straight forward responses.


After alittle more digging today, I came across this:

http://www.bna.com/bnabooks/ababna/annual/2005/016.pdf

Very good reading, and a lot of actual case references.

Around page 22 is a discussion on strikes and injunctions.

Although in this section he does preface with the term "Theoretical" it is the most thorough explanation I've seen on what the probable argument will be.
 
Interestingly, the posting above does put to bed theoretically the claim that Norris-LaGuardia prohibited the injunction:

There is a theoretical basis for the Bankruptcy Code to override the anti-injunction provisions of the Norris-LaGuardia Act, and permit strike injunctions. Theoretically, if the employer’s business has been brought under the protective jurisdiction of the bankruptcy court and the object of the strike is to “obtain possession of property†of the employer (by forcing it to agree to new contract terms or make payments under a rejected CBA) or to “collect, assess, or recover a claim against†the employer (such as forcing it to make delinquent payments under a CBA or pension plan) then the strike is an “act†that the Bankruptcy Code automatically stays and the federal courts can enjoin. See 11 U.S.C. § 362 (automatic stay); 11 U.S.C. § 105 (bankruptcy court may enter injunctions, pursuant to the power to “issue any order, process, or judgment that is necessary to appropriate to carry out the provisions of this titleâ€);
 
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