Afa Wants To Authorize Strike

I love these words from the AMFA website:

“What is our strategy? The contract negotiators will bargain with our eyes open and with cold-blooded precision to defend the members’ interests. We must focus our justified anger.â€￾

This is the obviously the time when unions must deliver something that their members perceive as value in return for their dues. Given the power of the bankruptcy process, which is decidedly tilted in favor of the company, the task is not easy.

I believe United employees will struggle with accepting the cuts being imposed on them much more than the employees at US. While US has struggled for years, UA’s downfall has come relatively recently. UA employees still see AA, CO, DL, and NW employees as their peers but those airlines are very unlikely to stoop to those levels of cuts in the near future. We are the point in the evolution of the industry where the employee factor will determine the survival of UA and US. UA particularly must work double time to get employees on its side (a very tall task given the long history of employee-mgmt conflicts at UA) or face a very speedy disintegration of its business which has been very heavily built on providing high quality service in prime worldwide markets.

I find a certain irony in the changing dynamic of the airlines, particularly in relation to flight attendants. While airlines have done a masterly job at leading the business world in converting from high-touch to self-service on the ground in attempts to reduce costs and eliminate employees, there are very few (if any steps) that can be done to reduce costs in the air using automation. The in-flight product is essentially a human product and consumers at every airline expect that. As long as governments require people on aircraft for safety, flight attendants will have to provide customer service in all the other times when safety is not immediately threatened. Some airlines provide fun service while some provide elegant but all successful airlines have a distinguished onboard product.

Yes, airlines have succeeded for years at convincing well-educated people to work as flight attendants because of the great perks and hours (which some even on this board have said are priceless) but the real issue is whether the airlines can provide distinctive customer service with flight attendants who don’t have college degrees or an interest in seeing the world. Given that American culture is one of the most me-focused and least service-oriented on the planet, it will be extraordinarily difficult to take people off the street who have not been immersed in a service-oriented mindset and teach them to provide real service. As a consumer, I’m not as interested in the credentials of the person providing the service as I am the finished product. The challenge for the airlines that seek to dramatically cut their costs is not in finding people willing to do the job since there will always be people who will be fascinated by the allure of flying and willing to sacrifice in order to see the world. The challenge is in obtaining and training people that can provide an onboard product that customers view favorably.
 
WorldTraveler said:
I love these words from the AMFA website:

“What is our strategy? The contract negotiators will bargain with our eyes open and with cold-blooded precision to defend the members’ interests. We must focus our justified anger.â€￾

This is the obviously the time when unions must deliver something that their members perceive as value in return for their dues. Given the power of the bankruptcy process, which is decidedly tilted in favor of the company, the task is not easy.

I believe United employees will struggle with accepting the cuts being imposed on them much more than the employees at US. While US has struggled for years, UA’s downfall has come relatively recently. UA employees still see AA, CO, DL, and NW employees as their peers but those airlines are very unlikely to stoop to those levels of cuts in the near future. We are the point in the evolution of the industry where the employee factor will determine the survival of UA and US. UA particularly must work double time to get employees on its side (a very tall task given the long history of employee-mgmt conflicts at UA) or face a very speedy disintegration of its business which has been very heavily built on providing high quality service in prime worldwide markets.

I find a certain irony in the changing dynamic of the airlines, particularly in relation to flight attendants. While airlines have done a masterly job at leading the business world in converting from high-touch to self-service on the ground in attempts to reduce costs and eliminate employees, there are very few (if any steps) that can be done to reduce costs in the air using automation. The in-flight product is essentially a human product and consumers at every airline expect that. As long as governments require people on aircraft for safety, flight attendants will have to provide customer service in all the other times when safety is not immediately threatened. Some airlines provide fun service while some provide elegant but all successful airlines have a distinguished onboard product.

Yes, airlines have succeeded for years at convincing well-educated people to work as flight attendants because of the great perks and hours (which some even on this board have said are priceless) but the real issue is whether the airlines can provide distinctive customer service with flight attendants who don’t have college degrees or an interest in seeing the world. Given that American culture is one of the most me-focused and least service-oriented on the planet, it will be extraordinarily difficult to take people off the street who have not been immersed in a service-oriented mindset and teach them to provide real service. As a consumer, I’m not as interested in the credentials of the person providing the service as I am the finished product. The challenge for the airlines that seek to dramatically cut their costs is not in finding people willing to do the job since there will always be people who will be fascinated by the allure of flying and willing to sacrifice in order to see the world. The challenge is in obtaining and training people that can provide an onboard product that customers view favorably.
[post="201924"][/post]​
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH....hey somebody drug test this crack head....
. UA employees still see AA, CO, DL, and NW employees as their peers but those airlines are very unlikely to stoop to those levels of cuts in the near future.
AA mechanics took a shafting THAT is still as bad as this EXCEPT they kept their pension....for now. And ask their pilots how their pockets feel....
Oh and DAL....yep, welcome to BK, coming to your home town soon....Now let me get this right, I need MBA's to run safety videos, do a lousy mime act about exiting the aircraft and serve drinks and meals "if you can get a flight that has this..." Oh brother, come on.....
 
So when UAL lowers the bar re: pay and benefits for all of us, then the other airlines follow suit, it seems to me we're right back where we started from (or where we're at now).

The bar will have to be lowered again, and again, ad nauseum. This industry hasn't shown to be in any way rational in the past. Once the other carriers "catch up" (yuk), UAL will be in the same disadvantaged competitive position. Where will it end?
 
spacewaitress said:
So when UAL lowers the bar re: pay and benefits for all of us, then the other airlines follow suit, it seems to me we're right back where we started from (or where we're at now).

The bar will have to be lowered again, and again, ad nauseum. This industry hasn't shown to be in any way rational in the past. Once the other carriers "catch up" (yuk), UAL will be in the same disadvantaged competitive position. Where will it end?
[post="201952"][/post]​

Pretty soon we'll be paying for the right to come to work............ah, those travel bennys :up:
 
spacewaitress said:
So when UAL lowers the bar re: pay and benefits for all of us, then the other airlines follow suit, it seems to me we're right back where we started from (or where we're at now).

The bar will have to be lowered again, and again, ad nauseum. This industry hasn't shown to be in any way rational in the past. Once the other carriers "catch up" (yuk), UAL will be in the same disadvantaged competitive position. Where will it end?
[post="201952"][/post]​

It will end at some point, just like it does for any other profession. Obviously non-aviation, non-union types (accountants, engineers, etc., etc.) aren't making minimum wage for their services. At some point, wages will stabilize and the market will determine what rates customers can afford to pay a cleaner, a pilot, a flight attendant, etc. From a pilot's standpoint (becuase I am one), for example, it won't make much sense for a student to sink 10's of thousands of dollars into an education and flight training if there is little or no "return on investment." Same probably holds true for other skilled positions (mechanics, management, etc.). What's going to happen to pay for other groups in the industry?

I think, long term, we're going to see wages settle to what is now the lowest common demoninator. I'd say look at what your specific peer is earning at JetBlue or America West or Spirit or Sun Country or similar and I think that's about where we're all going to end up, whether we earn that rate here at UAL or when we start over at another carrier if UAL fails. That's part of the reason I think its pretty much pointless to threaten to shut down UAL or US Air or whoever if they end up offering one's particular group wages and work rules similar to what are offered at the airline we'll be working at when/if UAL fails (don't get me wrong-I'm not saying one group or another should or shouldn't strike as is their right- burn the house down as your membership desires). I just think one will be earning the same long term wage no matter where one works. I guess it will just matter where one sits on the seniority list.
 
UALDriver,

I don't know if that is true at all. It might take a mechanic at F9 10 yrs to reach the 30+ an hour range, but our topped out mechanics are making what UAL mechanics are making right now. Our inspection department tops out at over 32+ an hour.

And my position at F9 in the technical area of the maintenance department, I know that I make MUCH more than a technical (MCC) guy at UniTED. So I don't think your theory holds water, I'd like others from the LCC'S to chime in here and tell us what they make???? You might be surprised and find out that in the end UniTED employees will be making less than their counterparts at the LCC'S. And just as an example of the best LCC to work for SWA pays their mechanics 40+ and hour and didn't blink an eye in giving them that contract!
 
The Ronin said:
Wait a minute...with all these MBA's from Notre Dame and CPA's and whatever, you stuck around a "non-paying, peanut fetching, coke spilling, people puking, customer bitching job for "flight bennies".....people with those pedigrees are up in first class...being SERVED BY YOU....now I know your full of it..... :shock:
[post="201906"][/post]​

Always enjoy your posts, Ronin. I am not done with the MBA, but I can assure you that most people with a MBA do not make six figures, as many think. Starting salaries for many non-top 20 school grads are around $65k. Accountants start out at $45k to $53k, certainly not enough to pay the $15k United is charging for first class these days. I believe many people who choose to do this job do it for the time off or to get out of the nine-to-five rat race. I will soon find out how it feels to have a boss behind my back all day. Then I will really have to put up with people's crap!
 
WorldTraveler said:
I love these words from the AMFA website:

“What is our strategy? The contract negotiators will bargain with our eyes open and with cold-blooded precision to defend the members’ interests. We must focus our justified anger.â€

This is the obviously the time when unions must deliver something that their members perceive as value in return for their dues. Given the power of the bankruptcy process, which is decidedly tilted in favor of the company, the task is not easy.
[post="201924"][/post]​


Do you see any ‘contract negotiators’ on this team?
Of course we have legal advisors and counsel but they are ancillary to the process.

11-18-04 AMFA UAL Negotiations Update #1

Weekly, and if necessary daily, updates will be provided via the AMFA-UAL Updates link at www.AMFANATL.org and the AMFA hotline: 1-800-520-AMFA (2632).

Co-Chairmen of the Negotiating Committee:
O.V. Delle-Femine, National Director, and Louie Key, Region I Director

Your Negotiating Committee:
Jim Seitz - ACAC
Local 1 NYA- Danny Thalassinos
Local 2 BOS- Steve DeSilvestro
Local 3 LAXDennis Fastenow
Local 4 CHI- David Quinn
Local 8 DEN- Ken Meidinger
Local 9SFO- Malik Miah, David Frizzell
Local 14 SEA- Russell Smith
Local 17 PDX- Tom Smmons
Local 39 IAD- Ken Bater
System Cleaner/Utility Rep Interim- Bill Skjoldager

You (and UAL) have underestimated the resolve of the AMFA Leadership and the UAL AMFA Membership.

The problem with this industry is that people do not have confidence in their own self worth as they have allowed themselves to be beaten down to believe what their ‘handlers’ tell them. Most unions have taken a participatory role in this belief to keep their ‘membership’ in subservience to the union whom is subservient to the ‘handler’.

This is not the case here and now!!!

UA has given their ‘Allocation Construct’ and ‘Company Proposal’ that are untenable to the membership.

The next time you sit your butt in your cheap seat, you might want to think that the minimum wage mechanic that went to 'Righty/Tighty' school understands the difference between a cotter pin and a pen made by cotter.

There is a difference!!!

B) UT
 
UAL_TECH said:
Do you see any ‘contract negotiators’ on this team?
Of course we have legal advisors and counsel but they are ancillary to the process.

11-18-04 AMFA UAL Negotiations Update #1
You (and UAL) have underestimated the resolve of the AMFA Leadership and the UAL AMFA Membership.

The problem with this industry is that people do not have confidence in their own self worth as they have allowed themselves to be beaten down to believe what their ‘handlers’ tell them. Most unions have taken a participatory role in this belief to keep their ‘membership’ in subservience to the union whom is subservient to the ‘handler’.

This is not the case here and now!!!

UA has given their ‘Allocation Construct’ and ‘Company Proposal’ that are untenable to the membership.

The next time you sit your butt in your cheap seat, you might want to think that the minimum wage mechanic that went to 'Righty/Tighty' school understands the difference between a cotter pin and a pen made by cotter.

There is a difference!!!

B) UT
[post="202224"][/post]​
I hope you are right. But most rank and file I have talked to are NOT going to risk their jobs with any kind of "job action". There are some, but not many....we shall see....and as far as Seitz and company (I personally know half of these guys), they certainly do not fight on my behalf....they're still playing a game that was passed by decades ago...IMHO
 
The Ronin said:
I hope you are right. But most rank and file I have talked to are NOT going to risk their jobs with any kind of "job action". There are some, but not many....we shall see....and as far as Seitz and company (I personally know half of these guys), they certainly do not fight on my behalf....they're still playing a game that was passed by decades ago...IMHO
[post="202300"][/post]​

FYI,
NEW News updates Regarding AMFA Local 9

Local 9 Membership meeting resolution

The following item was voted and approved at the dayshift and Midnight meetings on 17 Nov 2004.

The vote was unanimous.

Text of Resolution is as follows:

WHEREAS, The Association of Flight attendants United Airlines Master Executive Council unanimously adopted a Resolution for Strike preparedness on November 16, 2004 calling for AFA CHAOS strikes at any company that abrogates an AFA contract, and industry wide secondary strike properly authorized by the AFA and calling on all airline employees to join in solidarity and,

WHEREAS, we as mechanics and related are now facing the same attacks by the very same companies as the AFA and that our collective strength is in our numbers and our ability to withhold our labor across all crafts,

THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED, that this meeting of the Aircraft Mechanics Fraternal Association (AMFA) Local 9 San Francisco endorses these actions of the Association of Flight Attendants, and

BE IT FINALLY RESOLVED, that this meeting of AMFA Local 9 directs our Local, Airline, and National leadership to do everything they can to make similar strike preparations, including endorsement of the AFA resolutions and adoption of our own National strike resolutions.


If there are members out there that that are willing to accept any POS that is jammed up our neither reaches, you might want to tell them to let the LEC, ACAC, and ALR's know about it.

B) UT
 
UAL_TECH said:
FYI,
NEW News updates Regarding AMFA Local 9
If there are members out there that that are willing to accept any POS that is jammed up our neither reaches, you might want to tell them to let the LEC, ACAC, and ALR's know about it.

B) UT
[post="202385"][/post]​

Well then..."shall we sharpen our battle axes and wield them one last time"...for we will lose in the end, but God help me, I LOVE A FIGHT!!!! :up:
 
Ronin,
You are to be commended for your bravado – although I’m confident you will be humbled in the end. History shows that airlines reach a point in their downfall where their employees are no longer paid like the employees at more stable airlines. Ask some of the folks at TWA and Pan Am what they made in the final years of their careers and then compare salaries for that same position and seniority to other airlines – including at UA.

Like it or not, thanks to your management and your company’s financial mess, you have reached a point in your career where you have become a second tier employee in the industry from a pay perspective.
 
WorldTraveler said:
Ronin,
You are to be commended for your bravado – although I’m confident you will be humbled in the end. History shows that airlines reach a point in their downfall where their employees are no longer paid like the employees at more stable airlines. Ask some of the folks at TWA and Pan Am what they made in the final years of their careers and then compare salaries for that same position and seniority to other airlines – including at UA.

Like it or not, thanks to your management and your company’s financial mess, you have reached a point in your career where you have become a second tier employee in the industry from a pay perspective.
[post="202396"][/post]​

WT,

Interesting observation. :blink:

In your 'opinion' can you give us lil'folk a breakdown of the tier structure as is depicted in your post?

I don't know where I am and/or where I am going so any information that you can provide would be helpfull in understanding where we are in relationship as to where you and I are in the in the pecking order (food chain).


Thanks in advance,
:up: UT
 
UAL_TECH said:
WT,

Interesting observation. :blink:

In your 'opinion' can you give us lil'folk a breakdown of the tier structure as is depicted in your post?

I don't know where I am and/or where I am going so any information that you can provide would be helpfull in understanding where we are in relationship as to where you and I are in the in the pecking order (food chain).
Thanks in advance,
:up: UT
[post="202425"][/post]​

Us AMT's are at the bottom of the food chain. We are bottom feeders. We should be whipped for wanting to make a living for our families. We should work 1 day a week for free to help the company.

Just do what ever it takes to make Tilton feel the pain. Tilton should fly on every aircraft from the OSV to UA. When he sends the work overseas maybe Bin Laden will get access to a 747 or 777. Great Homeland Security.

If AFA wants to strike I'm behind them. They are the only group with BIG ONES if you know what I mean.
 

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