All UAL wants for Christmas is Labor Agreements

[ual747mech]

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On 12/28/2002 6:25:09 PM Bob Owens wrote:

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On 12/27/2002 9:30:42 PM ual747mech wrote:


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On 12/27/2002 5:55:57 PM Bob Owens wrote:


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On 12/26/2002 112 PM ual747mech wrote:

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Yea, it's nothing but a big conspiracy huh?


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Is that your rebuttal? You claim that the members should do what the Union says because of their experts and lawyers, just as they did in "94". I brought that up and your answer to that is that I am not a UAL employee? Why should the members be so confident in the judgement or motives of the same people that got them to grant long term concessions and invest a huge sum of money in company stock that is now pretty much worthless? Their advice in the past did not prove to be sound, why should they beleive that being advised to accept long term concessions again, by those same people, is in their best interests? Or is it in the IAMs best interests being that they will not have to bear the expense of negotiations for 8 years. 8 years of collecting dues with minimal expenses! For the next 8 years they will tell those members who gripe "You voted for it". Were the cuts designed to minimize the loss of dues to the union while maximizing the cuts the members take?
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See, you agree with me. It's nothing but a big conspiracy huh?

 

[Bob Owens]

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On 12/28/2002 9:48:51 PM ual747mech wrote:

See, you agree with me. It's nothing but a big conspiracy huh?
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Call it what you will. The fact is it doesnt get much worse for workers than to agree to an 8 year concessionary deal, right after coming off a six year concessionary deal. Thats half your career going backwards. If the judge abrogates the contract, there is a good chance that if the company tries to impose terms that are too harsh, or what they are offering now, they would be facing a strike. A strike would be the end. This is not 1983. So the company has a good incentive not to make it worse than what they are offering now. If you reject their offer more than likely you will at least be able to shorten the length of the contract.
As far as layoffs go accepting lower wages is a poor strategy for unions to take. Using that logic we will end up working for less and less. If you want to save jobs then work out some sort of Job sharing program like many of the trades unions have. Instead of cutting your hourly rate take a week off without pay. For every 49 employees who take one week off without pay it allows the company to keep one junior employee ( who may be earning less) working. The company can save money by lowering the total amount of hours paid, keeping lower paid employees on the payroll and by statistically lowering sick time losses.Another benifit is that when the company starts to expand as the economy recovers, or loses employees through attrition they will not have to go through the expensive hiring/training process again.With layoffs the company will likely lose many of their younger employees, certainly the most talented and driven ones, who may never return to the industry. The mechanic shortage will reappear once the economy recovers and if you figure that the last big event to create an abundant supply of aircraft mechanics was the Vietnam War you can see that the industry may be in trouble by the next decade.This could save the company the money it needs, maintain morale and provide the company a base of mechanics to help it in its recovery. This is a sound business move that is a lot easier to justify than the outrageous salaries that New hires like Tilton are extracting.

 

[thedog]

[STRONG][EM]If the Judge agrees to cancel the contract. Does this mean we no longer have pay union dues to the IAM? Would the closed shop also be wiped? Maybe some union leaders are really just protecting their own interest instead of the members. [/EM][/STRONG]

 

[ual747mech]

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On 12/29/2002 5:18:23 PM thedog wrote:

[STRONG][EM]If the Judge agrees to cancel the contract. Does this mean we no longer have pay union dues to the IAM? Would the closed shop also be wiped? Maybe some union leaders are really just protecting their own interest instead of the members. [/EM][/STRONG]
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Yup, you're right...because you'd be so poor you wouldn't be able to pay union dues anymore.

 

[ual747mech]

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On 12/29/2002 3:53:32 PM Bob Owens wrote:

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On 12/28/2002 9:48:51 PM ual747mech wrote:

See, you agree with me. It's nothing but a big conspiracy huh?
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Call it what you will. The fact is it doesnt get much worse for workers than to agree to an 8 year concessionary deal, right after coming off a six year concessionary deal. Thats half your career going backwards. If the judge abrogates the contract, there is a good chance that if the company tries to impose terms that are too harsh, or what they are offering now, they would be facing a strike. A strike would be the end. This is not 1983. So the company has a good incentive not to make it worse than what they are offering now. If you reject their offer more than likely you will at least be able to shorten the length of the contract.
As far as layoffs go accepting lower wages is a poor strategy for unions to take. Using that logic we will end up working for less and less. If you want to save jobs then work out some sort of Job sharing program like many of the trades unions have. Instead of cutting your hourly rate take a week off without pay. For every 49 employees who take one week off without pay it allows the company to keep one junior employee ( who may be earning less) working. The company can save money by lowering the total amount of hours paid, keeping lower paid employees on the payroll and by statistically lowering sick time losses.Another benifit is that when the company starts to expand as the economy recovers, or loses employees through attrition they will not have to go through the expensive hiring/training process again.With layoffs the company will likely lose many of their younger employees, certainly the most talented and driven ones, who may never return to the industry. The mechanic shortage will reappear once the economy recovers and if you figure that the last big event to create an abundant supply of aircraft mechanics was the Vietnam War you can see that the industry may be in trouble by the next decade.This could save the company the money it needs, maintain morale and provide the company a base of mechanics to help it in its recovery. This is a sound business move that is a lot easier to justify than the outrageous salaries that New hires like Tilton are extracting.

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This expert disagrees with you.

In a bankruptcy proceeding, union contracts can be voided or modified by a judge. Typically, however, they are modified only with approval from both the company and the union.

Michael Boyd, an aviation analyst from Golden, Colo., said it's imperative that United and mechanics agree on concessions rather than have a judge decide.

 

[thedog]

[BR][BR][BR]
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 12/29/2002 9:00:41 PM ual747mech wrote: [BR][BR][BR][BR]
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]Yup, you're right...because you'd be so poor you wouldn't be able to pay union dues anymore.

 

[ual747mech]

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On 12/29/2002 1149 PM kcabpilot wrote:

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On 12/29/2002 9:00:41 PM ual747mech wrote:

If the Company gets their wish to abrogate our contract, they are not bound to anything any more, that means they can impose whatever they feel is necessary.

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They can impose only what they feel they can get away with. Too harsh and guess what? Nobody shows up to work the next day. Their intent is to bust the union and they may succeed at that. It may be the only way for the Mechanics to get rid of the IAM. If UAL were to survive, and I'm really doubtful they will, the Mechanics that are left will eventually reorganize under a new union. This is because UAL management has never treated any of their employees equitably with good faith. The unions are necessary to keep them from trying to take the last two nickels out of your pocket as you sleep.


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Is this too harsh?

12. What happened to the Flight Attendant Contracts in the Continental Airlines and TWA bankruptcies?

Continental Airlines filed for bankruptcy protection in 1983 and 1991. In the first bankruptcy, Continental eliminated the Collective Bargaining Agreement and replaced it with unilaterally created work rules. Wages were cut by 60%, and vacation, sick and other benefits also were drastically reduced. A year after the second bankruptcy filing, the Flight Attendants were able to negotiate their first Collective Bargaining Agreement in nine years. That Contract, however, primarily incorporated most of the then existing work rules which management had imposed. Wages were increased but remained at 50% of what they were in 1983, before the first bankruptcy filing.

 

[wts54]

If the IAM is to believed about UAL's take it or leave it offer
I wonder if that is considered bargaining in good faith ??

 

[Busdrvr]

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On 12/30/2002 12:00:10 AM wts54 wrote:

If the IAM is to believed about UAL's take it or leave it offer
I wonder if that is considered bargaining in good faith ??
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It's good faith that it wasn't more... Let's see, the IAM said back in May, "No negotiations", in June they said, "No paycuts needed, just a little productivity" then they gave us a "7%" number that of course you thought was too much. Go ahead, turn down this one to, the number will just keep getting bigger (and you ranks will get smaller) till you catch a clue.

 

[kcabpilot]

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On 12/29/2002 9:00:41 PM ual747mech wrote:

If the Company gets their wish to abrogate our contract, they are not bound to anything any more, that means they can impose whatever they feel is necessary.

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[/blockquote]

They can impose only what they feel they can get away with. Too harsh and guess what? Nobody shows up to work the next day. Their intent is to bust the union and they may succeed at that. It may be the only way for the Mechanics to get rid of the IAM. If UAL were to survive, and I'm really doubtful they will, the Mechanics that are left will eventually reorganize under a new union. This is because UAL management has never treated any of their employees equitably with good faith. The unions are necessary to keep them from trying to take the last two nickels out of your pocket as you sleep.

To all the Mechanics at UAL:

The next few months are going to be very interesting. Just go to work, do your job and let things play out. If they lay you off think of it as a pardon. The greedy will build their own traps. What's coming to them may not be yours to deliver - but it is coming. When UAL comes crashing down just walk away with a clean pair of hands. We didn't do this.

 

[ual747mech]

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On 12/29/2002 945 PM thedog wrote:




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On 12/29/2002 9:00:41 PM ual747mech wrote:




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Yup, you're right...because you'd be so poor you wouldn't be able to pay union dues anymore. Don't be naive, I know you don't trust the IAM so look at what the other Union are saying then. If the Company gets their wish to abrogate our contract, they are not bound to anything any more, that means they can impose whatever they feel is necessary. You wouldn't want that to happen because it will be a lot worst than what could've been negotiated. We will be an at will employees which give them control how much to pay us, to lay off whoever they feel like laying off, no more seniority order. Yea we could threaten to strike but what leverage do we have against a bankrupt company. We could potentially fold the Company like what happened at Eastern but is that the answer. Maybe it will be the end of the Company if that happens or maybe it will survive like Continental. Even if we strike will the other labor group support us? If they don't then the chance of the company surviving will be a lot greater. What would you rather have? a contract that have things to protect our interest or not having a contract, which means management have full control of us. Think about it.. Go talk to an attorney for advice if you don't believe what the Unions or Management are saying. [/BLOCKQUOTE]

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[STRONG][EM]So why are not those Delta Mechanics poor and laid off out of seniority. They are free to join a union and have been for years, yet they are not. They do not even have a contract for which the governement and rich company thieves can hold them hostage.

You really want me to go talk to and trust an attorney?[/EM][/STRONG]
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Then go work for Delta instead of staying here and keep bitching and moaning. No matter where you're at you will never be happy, you seem to be that type of person. What do you propose we do from here on, then?

Talk to a professional you can trust or whoever you think has an answer that you are satisfied with. I don't think you will do that though, you will just stay there and keep on griping about everything. I don't think you're even looking for another job if you're that unhappy right now because you wouldn't. You are just gonna sit there and complain forever about everything, theres a lot of you in this world.

So why are not those Delta Mechanics poor?

They are not working for a bankrupt carrier like United and US Air.

 

[kcabpilot]

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On 12/30/2002 12:08:10 AM Busdrvr wrote:

It's good faith that it wasn't more...

the number will just keep getting bigger (and you ranks will get smaller) till you catch a clue.
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Catch a clue? You better catch a clue Busdrvr. They started out saying they needed 9 billion, now it's 14. Guess what the latest number is, analysts are quoting 24 and you know how UAL management loves those analysts. Let's see, 24 billion by 80,000 employees (oh but you said the numbers would be smaller) maybe 50,000? Okay, that's only about half a million dollars per employee but they'll give you six years to pay it off.

60% paycuts? Look 747mech, nobody's gonna be coming to work for 14 an hour. They can just shut the doors and start trying to sell what they have for a dime on the dollar.

 

[Bob Owens]

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On 12/29/2002 9:09:37 PM ual747mech wrote:

This expert disagrees with you.

In a bankruptcy proceeding, union contracts can be voided or modified by a judge. Typically, however, they are modified only with approval from both the company and the union.

Michael Boyd, an aviation analyst from Golden, Colo., said it's imperative that United and mechanics agree on concessions rather than have a judge decide.

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Imperative for whom? Is Mr Boyd a labor advocate or is he speaking from an investors point of veiw? The judge can abrogate the agreement if specific terms are met, if he brokers an agreement the modifications have to be consentual, he cant impose new terms. The company's request for a six year concessionary agreement is clearly unreasonable when the history of this industry is taken into account. The employees have agreements in place, expecting completely new agreements that run beyond the term of the present agreements reflects opportunism on the part of the company. The refusal of the employees to accept such terms despite the company's present condition is not unreasonable, the company's requests are unreasonable. A reasonable request would be a Year to Year agreement that restores all the original contract provisions, without time-line modifications (original dates prevail)once the company's finances have become stabilized.

 

[wts54]

United pilots go extra mile as airline struggles

By Chris Woodyard, USA TODAY

More business news

Money front page



At the start of the holiday rush, three United Airlines pilots shook hands with passengers in a Denver International Airport terminal to thank them for their business. One brought an instant camera to snap photos of families.

Later that same day in Los Angeles, another United pilot was seen in the concourse directing passengers to their departure gates.

Some passengers say they think the recent acts of kindness show United flight crews have gone on a charm offensive as the airline fights for survival in bankruptcy court.

"In the several hundred flights I've taken in the past few years, I've never seen them greeting passengers before," says Thom Nulty, president of Navigant International, who witnessed the friendly pilots in Denver and Los Angeles.

United spokeswoman Chris Nardella says customer service remains "a strong focus given our financial issues," but that no special orders have gone out.

Actions in United's bankruptcy reorganization could dampen the employees' enthusiasm:

Friday, United filed a motion seeking to scrap labor agreements if it is unable to reach voluntary cost-cutting deals with its unions. A hearing is scheduled for today. The airline seeks to cut $2.4 billion in annual costs prior to a Feb. 15 deadline set by lenders.

Saturday, union leaders urged pilots and flight attendants to accept United's proposal to keep their contracts in exchange for voluntary pay cuts. Heads of United's branch of the Air Line Pilots Association said they approved the proposed 29% pay cut and will send the pact to pilots for ratification. Officials of the Association of Flight Attendants agreed Saturday to recommend members approve an interim 8.16% cut in base wages.

Four of United's six unions have now reached concession agreements with the airline. Members of the unions will vote over the next 10 days, and the cuts would take effect this week. No deal has been reached with the International Association of Machinists (IAM), United's largest union representing nearly 40,000 workers.

Herb Hunter, a spokesman for United's pilots, says their union has been working with management for months to find a solution.

He adds that pilots are trying hard to show their appreciation. He says he always walks the aisle of his United Boeing 777 to shake hands with passengers. "It's something that I would think the company would want us to do," he says.

Unless they dont have their bottled water or the same meals as first class
then you should hear them whining on the ops radio that they arent leaving
until they get it.
And busdrvr the timeclock on the goodfaith part doesnt start running until the chap11 papers are filed at least according to UAL.If they think they are
going to layoff 80% of us then I think the only bus you maybe driving is
the senior citizen gambling bus from lax-las.

 

[Bob Owens]

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On 12/30/2002 12:08:10 AM Busdrvr wrote:


It's good faith that it wasn't more... Let's see, the IAM said back in May, "No negotiations", in June they said, "No paycuts needed, just a little productivity" then they gave us a "7%" number that of course you thought was too much. Go ahead, turn down this one to, the number will just keep getting bigger (and you ranks will get smaller) till you catch a clue.
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Oh really? How much less are mechanics making now? The fact is they are still working for their agreed to rates. Well the longer they wait the more desperate and the louder the company will yell. Their threats get bigger and bigger but the mechanics still are getting their pay. The fact is that the company can not weather a strike by the mechanics. When they get reasonable, the mechanics will get reasonable.