Tentative agreements

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spacewaitress

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Reuters
United: Has Tentative Deals with 4 Unions
Friday December 27, 8:10 pm ET
CHICAGO (Reuters) - UAL Corp.''s (NYSE:UAL - News) United Airlines said in a bankruptcy court filing on Friday it has reached tentative deals on wage cuts with leaders from four of its six unions, which it hopes members will ratify by early January.

The airline, which filed the largest bankruptcy in aviation history on Dec. 9, filed court papers on Friday seeking to terminate labor agreements if it is unable to reach voluntary cost-cutting deals with its unions.
But the No. 2 U.S. airline, based in Elk Grove Village, Illinois, said in court documents it would withdraw that motion if key unions ratified the proposed deals. United said it had reached tentative deals with the unions representing its pilots, flight attendants, dispatchers and meteorologists.
In a statement, the company said it would seek the court''s authority to impose wage reductions on the International Association of Machinists, which it said has not agreed to any voluntary wage cuts.
United has said it needs to slash labor costs by $2.4 billion a year in order to meet the conditions set forth by its lenders. Unless United can achieve specific cash flow targets through deeper cost cuts, it cannot tap into an additional $700 million of debtor-in-possession, or DIP, financing. It currently has access to $800 million of financing to help it operate while in bankruptcy.
 

Busdrvr

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[blockquote]
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On 12/27/2002 8:26:40 PM spacewaitress wrote:

It sounds like this is just a temporary fix
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What this is, is EXACTLY what the IAM guys "claim" to want, a short term deal to let things shake out a little, meet the DIP requirements, and then see what is really needed to ensure UAL's long term viability (and CAL's demise
 

767jetz

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[blockquote]
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On 12/28/2002 2:04:00 AM wts54 wrote:

How is the IAM hiding?
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Because, as Busdrvr pionts out, what the IAM has been saying is that the world isn't as bad as the company sees it, and there is no need for long term give backs. So now you have a short term solution to negotiate more permanent changes as better info becomes available, and the IAM is still not interested. They always seem to have an excuse! That's how the IAM is hiding. Hiding behind denial.

Or maybe they are just hiding behind the judge. When the judge imposes the cuts, the IAM can say, "well, it's not our fault! Blame it on the judge. We tried to keep your contract, so there's no need to dump us for AMFA."

Whatever the excuse of the day is, it seems like the IAM will not be happy with any solution that involves any contribution from them.

WHAT EVER!
 

Bob Owens

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[blockquote]
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On 12/29/2002 1:50:51 PM 767jetz wrote:


Or maybe they are just hiding behind the judge. When the judge imposes the cuts, the IAM can say, "well, it's not our fault! Blame it on the judge. We tried to keep your contract, so there's no need to dump us for AMFA."

Whatever the excuse of the day is, it seems like the IAM will not be happy with any solution that involves any contribution from them.

There comes a time when you have to put down your weapons and live to fight another day.
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The judge can not impose anything. He can abrogate the agreement and they can strike. The fact is that the labor these workers provide is their property and the Judge does not have the right to force them to give away their property to a private company under terms to which they do not consent.

I can only speak from a mechanics point of veiw. Are the wages paid to mechanics, under the conditions under which they work, considered above average compared to similarly trained and qualified workers where they live? Here in NY we are still grossly underpaid. Therefore no concessions should be given. Other work groups must make their own comparasions and come to their own conclusions.


"There comes a time when you have to put down your weapons and live to fight another day."

And what day would that be? Hitler did not just go out and slaughter the Jews. He diminished their humanity one step at a time to the point where they walked into the chambers of death. Given the choice between dying in a fight against the Nazi's on the Streets of Warsaw and dying in the Gas Chambers of Aushwitz what would you choose? This is an over dramatisation but the fight is now. You cant only fight when the odds are overwhelmingly in your favor and just plain surrender when they are not. You will die a poor slave before you ever fight with that mentality.
 

Busdrvr

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[blockquote]
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On 12/30/2002 7:18:20 AM Bob Owens wrote:


"The judge can not impose anything. He can abrogate the agreement and they can strike."


WRONG! There you go passing out legal advice when you don't know WTH you are talking about. The judge CAN impose a temporary paycut in emergency situations.

"The fact is that the labor these workers provide is their property and the Judge does not have the right to force them to give away their property to a private company under terms to which they do not consent."


EVERY mech is free to quit if they are unwilling to work for the "nazi-slave" wages the judge implements.

"I can only speak from a mechanics point of veiw. Are the wages paid to mechanics, under the conditions under which they work, considered above average compared to similarly trained and qualified workers where they live? Here in NY we are still grossly underpaid."

Then they can quit. Seems like there are quit a few unemployed mechs in the NYC are.


"And what day would that be? Hitler did not just go out and slaughter the Jews. He diminished their humanity one step at a time to the point where they walked into the chambers of death. Given the choice between dying in a fight against the Nazi's on the Streets of Warsaw and dying in the Gas Chambers of Aushwitz what would you choose? This is an over dramatisation but the fight is now. You cant only fight when the odds are overwhelmingly in your favor and just plain surrender when they are not. You will die a poor slave before you ever fight with that mentality."

13% paycut from the best paying contract (with likely the most featherbedding) in the industry is like getting gased at Aushwitz?! You are one sick individual. That is an insult to the families and survivors of the Nazi's. Your post shows just how far out of touch you have become

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UnitedChicago

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Bob Owens:

Your statement:

And what day would that be? Hitler did not just go out and slaughter the Jews. He diminished their humanity one step at a time to the point where they walked into the chambers of death. Given the choice between dying in a fight against the Nazi's on the Streets of Warsaw and dying in the Gas Chambers of Aushwitz what would you choose? This is an over dramatisation but the fight is now. You cant only fight when the odds are overwhelmingly in your favor and just plain surrender when they are not. You will die a poor slave before you ever fight with that mentality.

With all due respect Mr. Mechanic, please do not compare your "plight" with that of the jews. That is just in really bad taste.
 

Bob Owens

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[blockquote]
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On 12/30/2002 8:13:10 AM Busdrvr wrote:

[

"WRONG! There you go passing out legal advice when you don't know WTH you are talking about. The judge CAN impose a temporary paycut in emergency situations."

Show me how he can impose cuts and the workers are not free to strike.Under the RLA workers are kept working under the status quo. I've never heard of a Judge imposing cuts and preventing a strike even with government workers.



"EVERY mech is free to quit if they are unwilling to work for the "nazi-slave" wages the judge implements."

Yes and he is free to strike.


"13% paycut from the best paying contract (with likely the most featherbedding) in the industry is like getting gased at Aushwitz?! You are one sick individual. That is an insult to the families and survivors of the Nazi's. Your post shows just how far out of touch you have become"

The worst thing that we can do to the victims of the Holocaust is to forget them and not learn anything from their suffering. The comment was not meant to trivialize their loss.The Jews were subjected to ever increasing levels of persecution. The first things did not seem completely intolerable but having gotten away with it things continued to get worse. The point is that the company, having gotten away with this transgression will continue to come back for more. Obviously losing your career is not the same as using your life but exaggerations are used on both sides of the discussion to emphasize a point. The fact is this is a struggle, perhaps insignificant in comparasion but there is nothing wrong from drawing lessons from the past.

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UnitedChicago

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Bob Lott:

Please change your last name to Lott. Your justification for using the jews as an example is almost as bad as your original use of the jew's plight as an example of your own plight.

I disgusted by your use of this as an example. I would expect others on here - including our moderator - to be just as outraged as I.
 

Bob Owens

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Actually as you have highlighted so well it’s not directly my plight yet. But;
First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.
Pastor Martin Niemöller
The comparison to Lotts lamenting "the good old days of segregation" and my use of the injustice that was perpetrated upon the Jewish race is unfounded. The fact is that the workers of UAL are being cheated. Its an injustice. A minor injustice in comparason but still an injustice.You are here because you want cheap airfares at their expense. History is not sacred, it is there for people to draw lessons from. If you dont like hearing it thats too bad.
 

767jetz

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To everyone except BOB:

Bob is simply a flippin' a$$ wipe. He works for American, and is only concerned with how our pay cut's, specifically the mechanics, will affect his negotiating leverage. He knows that pay cuts at USAir and UAL set a precedent for AMR to follow. I don't know about you guys/gals, but at this point I couldn't give a rat's a$$ about what happens at American. This is about survival.

Pay cuts are coming whether we like it or not. There is nothing you, me, Bob or anyone else can do about it. So are more furloughs. My point is that it's probably more prudent play along for now, to save our energies until the next up swing, and then fight to regain some of what we're losing now.

In the mean time, the only time American and people like Bob cross my mind is when I savor the thought of UAL emerging from this mess stronger, and in a position to stuff it to the likes of America, Continental, and everyone else who lobbied so hard against our survival!

Good Day to all. Have a safe Holiday.

UNITED WILL STAND
 

Bob Owens

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[blockquote]
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On 12/30/2002 2:54:37 PM 767jetz wrote:

To everyone except BOB:

Bob is simply a flippin' a$$ wipe. He works for American, and is only concerned with how our pay cut's, specifically the mechanics, will affect his negotiating leverage. He knows that pay cuts at USAir and UAL set a precedent for AMR to follow. I don't know about you guys/gals, but at this point I couldn't give a rat's a$$ about what happens at American. This is about survival.

Pay cuts are coming whether we like it or not. There is nothing you, me, Bob or anyone else can do about it. So are more furloughs. My point is that it's probably more prudent play along for now, to save our energies until the next up swing, and then fight to regain some of what we're losing now.

In the mean time, the only time American and people like Bob cross my mind is when I savor the thought of UAL emerging from this mess stronger, and in a position to stuff it to the likes of America, Continental, and everyone else who lobbied so hard against our survival!

Good Day to all. Have a safe Holiday.

UNITED WILL STAND
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You mean in 2009? During the next upswing you will be locked into this new agreement. I dont deny that I'm concerned that what happens at UAL will set a bad precident for the rest of us but you are a sell out. Both to your coworkers and to the profession. If this was a one year deal, then things would be different.UAL is asking for a deal that could carry you till 2010. The fact is that we all can thank the Mechanics at NWA for what we are making now. Were they fighting for us? No, but we all benifited from what they accomplished, therefore we all should have supported them, many of us did. Did you? The monies that we all lost over the last twenty years will never be recovered, neither would all of the money that you want to give away now. For AA, UAL would be similar, a mechanic at top pay in 1978 has lost at least $150,000 dollars worth of buying power already, due to the fact that his wages have not kept up with inflation. Now you want your coworkers to buy off on an agreement that could easily take them till 2010 and say, "if the economy is great and all the planets are aligned the right way and we have a freindly administration and favorable labor laws passed and everything is just perfect that 'we will fight on this day to recover what we have lost'". Do you really think that you will be able to recover what will now be at least $200,000? You would have to double your rate of pay to do that and how likely is it that the NMB will release you if you are asking for that? Just ask the Mechs at NWA.
Wasnt the last 6 years long enough?
 

sfb

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I think Bob Owens also needs to ask how much buying power the Eastern mechanics have lost in the last ten years after saying "Shut it down!" It's all great to say that you're trying to protect the wages of mechanics at other airlines, but do you think they're going to hire a United mechanic on at topped-out pay at AA, NW, CO, WN, etc. to say "thanks for protecting our wages" after UAL liquidates? Do you think the flight attendants think the situation is serious, given that they're taking a pay cut nearly as large as the mechanics' from industry-average, not "industry-leading" pay? A long, concessionary contact sure isn't what the mechanics wanted, but the alternative is a pink slip for every last one of them. If you don't believe it, look at Eastern again. If the DIP financing is yanked, it's game over. If you already have a better job opportunity with better hours and better pay, you'd be insane not to have taken it already! And if there are so many of those out in the marketplace, why care about furloughs? After all, those furloughed mechanics would all immediately be able to find these great jobs with high pay! Not only that, you'd get a bunch of paid vacation with your severance and unemployment benefits.

The facts are that the industry can't party like it's 1999 (literally!) anymore. The well-funded business travelers who were bankrolling those record profits and industry-leading contracts have had their wings clipped. The low-fare carriers now represent a large enough portion of the market that they can no longer be ignored or contained with efforts like United Shuttle.

Only one thing is certain -- if the United mechanics exercise their right to strike, it's all over. The DIP financing will be pulled, the company will shut down and liquidate, and everyone will be on the unemployment line.
 

Cosmo

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[blockquote]
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On 12/30/2002 4:28:09 PM sfb wrote:

Only one thing is certain -- if the United mechanics exercise their right to strike, it's all over. The DIP financing will be pulled, the company will shut down and liquidate, and everyone will be on the unemployment line.
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A few other points to keep in mind as well if the mechanics strike and United then liquidates:

1.) There will be NO severance pay.
2.) There will be NO COBRA health insurance.
3.) Payment for accrued vacation days will likely be only pennies on the dollar, if anything at all, as employees join a very long list of unsecured creditors.

In short, if anyone thinks things are bad now, should United be forced to shut down, you THEN will see how truly nasty life can become for the employees.

This is just a reality check, folks, so that you understand what the downside of United liquidating can mean.
 
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