All UAL wants for Christmas is Labor Agreements

[Bob Owens]

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On 12/29/2002 1154 PM ual747mech wrote:

Then go work for Delta instead of staying here and keep bitching and moaning. No matter where you're at you will never be happy, you seem to be that type of person. What do you propose we do from here on, then?

Talk to a professional you can trust or whoever you think has an answer that you are satisfied with. I don't think you will do that though, you will just stay there and keep on griping about everything. I don't think you're even looking for another job if you're that unhappy right now because you wouldn't. You are just gonna sit there and complain forever about everything, theres a lot of you in this world.

So why are not those Delta Mechanics poor?

They are not working for a bankrupt carrier like United and US Air.
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Neither does "the dog"

 

[Busdrvr]

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On 12/30/2002 6:44:41 AM Bob Owens wrote:

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On 12/30/2002 12:08:10 AM Busdrvr wrote:


It's good faith that it wasn't more... Let's see, the IAM said back in May, "No negotiations", in June they said, "No paycuts needed, just a little productivity" then they gave us a "7%" number that of course you thought was too much. Go ahead, turn down this one to, the number will just keep getting bigger (and you ranks will get smaller) till you catch a clue.
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Oh really? How much less are mechanics making now? The fact is they are still working for their agreed to rates. Well the longer they wait the more desperate and the louder the company will yell. Their threats get bigger and bigger but the mechanics still are getting their pay. The fact is that the company can not weather a strike by the mechanics. When they get reasonable, the mechanics will get reasonable.

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Yeah and they lost pretty much the entire value of their ESOP shares. That's up to a $200,000 loss for some. What is reasonable "bob"? FPTTLD? You are completely clueless. The company TRIED reasonable. The mechanics spit in their face for it. I'll tell you what is reasonable "bob". How about the company pay all the mechanics the exact rates under the same rules as SWA? Let's put around 6-7000 mechs on the street. No more heavy MX, no more R&D. Are all the mechs still getting paid "bob"? How many more have been furloughed since the IAM started acting in thier "best interest"? BTW "bob", do you guys do R&D at AMR? How many mechs do you guys have on the payrole "bob"?

 

[Bob Owens]

Busdrvr:




"Yeah and they lost pretty much the entire value of their ESOP shares. That's up to a $200,000 loss for some."

How many mechanics held $200,000 worth of ESOP sahares on Nov26th 2002? not many. Besides even though they paid for it it was still "two in the bush". They gave the "one in the hand", lost it and now you want them to give even more because of what "may" happen if they dont.

"The company TRIED reasonable."

Seven years of concessions is reasonable? Would ANY executive consider such terms for themselves reasonable? Who in their right mind would consider seven years of concessions reasonable?

"How about the company pay all the mechanics the exact rates under the same rules as SWA?"

Who would do the heavy maintenance? The fact is that as SWA gets bigger they will likely bring in more and more work in house where they have control over the product. The larger a carrier gets the more effecient it becomes to do heavy maint, assuming of course that its managed properly.

"Are all the mechs still getting paid "bob"? How many more have been furloughed since the IAM started acting in thier "best interest"?"

Furloughs have always been a part of this industry. If there is not enough work then hours worked will be reduced, this reduction leads to layoffs. Reducing wages will not create work, passengers and customers will.Personally I feel that we should try a Job share program in order to save jobs. Rates should never be reduced unless you feel that people are overpaid for what they do. The long term effects of over reacting to short term crisis have devastated our profession.

"How many mechs do you guys have on the payrole "bob"?"

I beleive around 12000 to 13000. As far as R&D goes we do not do it but the company would probably save money by having us do it. They would save money because due to the high turnover rate on Ramp and the apparent inabilty of management to properly manage their workers the guys doing the R&D work huge amounts of OT even though they have part timers. Live trips are often waiting for extended periods of time to be parked and dispatched. Its not uncommon for mechanics waiting to dump an aircraft to the hangar to wait over an hour to be pushed off the gate.A Christmas snowstorm resulted in deicing delays as long as six hours, how long was the longest delay at UAL/JFK on Christmas? When we did deicing we used a fraction of the fluid, knew where not to spray and why and performed the job much more efficiently. If you take a 6 hour delay and use a couple of thousand extra gallons of fluid where are the savings? Some things look better on paper than in practice. If the mechanics are forced to take paycuts the company may not realize the savings that they counted on. Of all the employees mechanics are usually the ones least likely to get caught up in a "I love the company" propaganda campain. They will look at their paychecks, compare it to comparable jobs both within and outside of the industry and adjust their outlook accordingly. As long as their pay is maintained they will have a strong motivation to do their job as effeciently as possibly to help the company make money too. If their pay is cut they will have to make up that money somewhere. Can you say "overtime"? How much money does an airplane bring in when mechanics are putting in OT fixing it?

 

[ual747mech]

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On 12/30/2002 6:36:57 AM Bob Owens wrote:

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On 12/29/2002 1154 PM ual747mech wrote:

Then go work for Delta instead of staying here and keep bitching and moaning. No matter where you're at you will never be happy, you seem to be that type of person. What do you propose we do from here on, then?

Talk to a professional you can trust or whoever you think has an answer that you are satisfied with. I don't think you will do that though, you will just stay there and keep on griping about everything. I don't think you're even looking for another job if you're that unhappy right now because you wouldn't. You are just gonna sit there and complain forever about everything, theres a lot of you in this world.

So why are not those Delta Mechanics poor?

They are not working for a bankrupt carrier like United and US Air.
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Neither does "the dog"

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So are you saying you're "the dog"?

 

[wts54]

blah,blah,blah,blah....


Hi, this is Glenn. This is the time of year when many of us spend time with our families and friends to enjoy our various holiday celebrations. For all of us at United this is also a time of significant change, which is always difficult to contemplate, especially when it may impact our families and our friends. Today, I want to acknowledge all of you and thank you for the continued commitment and focus on doing your jobs as well and better than you ever have before.As soon as we lay off all the mechanics and farmout the
work to Mexico our profits will increase.

As a result of your efforts, we continue to outperform our competitors and our customers know that they are our number-one priority. I also want to take the occasion to acknowledge the work and collaboration between the union representatives and leadership and the management team that are working very hard today to reach agreements as we move forward.

As I've said before, I have no doubt that we will emerge from Chapter 11 and be a significant competitor in the airline business that meets the needs of the 21st century.

We all know we have a tough challenge to accomplish the transformation we need, but we also know we have a unique set of assets and the very best people in the business that will enable us to restore United to a position of leadership.

Thanks again and my best wishes to all of you and to your families throughout this holiday season as we prepare for a challenging new year. In closing, keep your heads up and be United. I'll be talking to you soon.

 

[Bob Owens]

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On 12/30/2002 1:34:25 PM ual747mech wrote:

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On 12/30/2002 6:36:57 AM Bob Owens wrote:

[Neither does "the dog"

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So are you saying you're "the dog"?
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No

 

[ual747mech]

Hey Bob! You mechanics at American got a shi**y contract. Your Overhaul Support Mechanics(Shop Mechanics to us)still makes considerably less even after the paycut we will take. I think you better lobby in your own house before worrying about us bringing your wages down.

 

[Bob Owens]

Well I'm in line maint. I dont like the idea of OSMs but Tulsa carries more than half of the votes and they were OK with it. That fight will have to wait till 2004. You are welcome to join the discussion then. I make more than you and I got my FULL retro last year. If you accept these cuts I'll make a lot more than you. You will get what I'm making now in 2008, maybe. Your vacation accrual rate along with all those other little points will leave you far behind us. But you may still be an owner right? Oh I forgot, now that its what $1 per share, not $90, the company that controls "your" stock has decided to sell it. What did you pay for it?

 

[thedog]

[STRONG][EM]I wonder how much I could keep of my own pay and benefits if we agree to allow OSMs at our maintenance bases. How many OSMs are allowed at AA and what work do they do.[/EM][/STRONG]

 

[ual747mech]

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On 12/30/2002 3:39:28 AM kcabpilot wrote:


60% paycuts? Look 747mech, nobody's gonna be coming to work for 14 an hour. They can just shut the doors and start trying to sell what they have for a dime on the dollar.
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Never say never, you started out around there didn't you?
I certainly wouldn't want to be here(hell I'm seriously thinking about leaving now)but you'd be surprised how many would apply if United put out an ad to hire mechanics for that much. Look at Timco and other third party maintenance company. They don't seem to have a problem staffing their facilities. Their turnover ratio is high but thats what happens as people find a higher paying jobs or better working condition somewhere else.

Look all I'm trying to do is educate people that it can get worst, much worst because theres no way stop concession when you're working for a bankrupt airline. I'm basing this on history, also the unions said that it will be worst in bankruptcy when they were trying to convince people to ratify the concessions before we filed for bankruptcy.

All we can do now is to minimize concessions as much as possible. Listen to the unions, if you don't trust them then I think you will not listen to anybody.

 

[ual747mech]

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On 12/30/2002 3:15:28 PM Bob Owens wrote:

Well I'm in line maint. I dont like the idea of OSMs but Tulsa carries more than half of the votes and they were OK with it. That fight will have to wait till 2004. You are welcome to join the discussion then. I make more than you and I got my FULL retro last year. If you accept these cuts I'll make a lot more than you. You will get what I'm making now in 2008, maybe. Your vacation accrual rate along with all those other little points will leave you far behind us. But you may still be an owner right? Oh I forgot, now that its what $1 per share, not $90, the company that controls "your" stock has decided to sell it. What did you pay for it?
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We're making more than you AA mechanics right now. We own stocks too. It's unfortunate that our company is bankrupt because of mainly mismanagement and other circumstances beyond our control. Had our company been as healthy as back when we were making record profits we would be the best compensated mechanics in the industry by far.

Now that we are bankrupt, the best thing to do is to minimize the pay cuts as much as possible because there is no way to stop it. There's a lot of people that still don't understand, including you.

 

[kcabpilot]

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On 12/30/2002 6:06:43 PM ual747mech wrote:

Look at Timco and other third party maintenance company. They don't seem to have a problem staffing their facilities.

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Actually, they do have a problem. Why do you think they are "desperately" seeking people? (their words) In fact, they have big problems just like ASG, AMS, Tramco and all the others that went before them and failed. UAL management would like you to believe that if you didn't show up tomorrow they could just go across the street and things would cruise along like normal. That's a big lie. If the Mechanics lay down their tools it's over pal. No Buses for Busdrvr, even Glenn would have to buy a ticket on another airline.

 

[The Ronin]

How about accepting your fate and stand up like men, mechanics. I'm not talking about following the IAM or anything more than believing in who and what you are. There is no deal this time, there is no negotiation. The company has already told the IAM, jet shop...gone, indy...gone, oak...gone. So why do you think the IAM is going to court??? Because you might as well make them take it all instead of just giving it away.

 

[The Ronin]

<POST DELETED BY MODERATOR>

 

[Bob Owens]

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On 12/30/2002 5:44:58 PM ual747mech wrote:

[
We're making more than you AA mechanics right now. We own stocks too. It's unfortunate that our company is bankrupt because of mainly mismanagement and other circumstances beyond our control. Had our company been as healthy as back when we were making record profits we would be the best compensated mechanics in the industry by far.

Now that we are bankrupt, the best thing to do is to minimize the pay cuts as much as possible because there is no way to stop it. There's a lot of people that still don't understand, including you.
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Has the company revised their demands or are they still asking for a six year agreement?

I dont have your numbers in front of me but if my recollection is correct you receive your raises in August while we receive ours in March. When we get our raises it puts us around $1 ahead of you guys until August where you go ahead of us by around 11 cents. That means for around 1000 hours we make $1/hr more than you while for around 1000 hours you make 11 cents more than us. So by the end of the year, that leaves us around $890 ahead.

UAl is in bad shape. I dont think anyone denies that.How bad we really wont know until some time in the future.You probably have a few years invested there. So you really do not want to see them go under. Completely understandable. But, to get locked into a Six year agreement that history has proven could likely last until 2010 is nuts. If you have to agree to concessions thats one thing, but to be stuck with them, even if the company has a "miracle turnaround" like in 1984 and 1996, until at least 2008 is unreasonable. All this rah rah stuff about coming back to beat AA and Delta is pure crap. What will you have won by working for less? Bragging rights that your company made the most money by paying you the least? I'd rather not have such dumb bragging rights and have the extra money in the bank. This guy Tilton, he already got more than you will ever make and what does he know about this industry? Other than going for pay cuts what else has he done to make UAL more competitive? If his strategy is to lower wages until profitability how low will you go? At $22,000,000 a day that means that he has to cut all 85,000 employees pay by $258 a day to break even. If you're only making $292 per day that leaves you with $34/day or $4.25/hr. It cant be done, there is a thing called the Minimum Wage.