American Airlines and Labor Negotiations

[bob@las-AA]

Update:

I have been informed that a communication will be forwarded to the membership on Friday concerning our equity. For all who have a vested interest in this, no other details have been released, other than that this Friday the information will be made available to your local leaders.

 

[CremaDiLimone]

Undermining?

Was my sharing undermining at that point?

of course not.

but, i've been debating this specific point as if you were a negotiator or even head of the twu airline division.

if you were....yes, then you would be undermining the iam negotiators.

as far as the rest, i basically agree. i do believe that the lus insurance has to be quantified to get something of significance for it.

your argument about this actually boosts the sale price of lus insurance, if the company will avoid more expensive insurance plans with the pilots and flight attendants.

hopefully, the assoc. is talking amongst themselves about the inevitable. the problem here is that they can't/shouldn't talk publicly about the 'inevitable'. once and if a TA occurs, then they will need to talk and try to sell it (additional compensation in exchange for the lus insurance) to their iam constituents.

 

[NYer]

but, i've been debating this specific point as if you were a negotiator or even head of the twu airline division.

if you were....yes, then you would be undermining the iam negotiators.

Disagree. The IAM medical issue is not a secret even though few wanted to talk about it as being a possible "must have" for the airline. That idea was scoffed at.

Undermining would be that we'd publicly say we're fighting for it, while behind the scenes we're making side deals with the airline in exchange for it.

If we're to maximize the return, then we need to be honest about where we stand.

 

[PIEDMONT784]

That's not what he asked.
A negotiated company match percentage, and whether or not an employee participates are two very separate things. Even you should know that.

Not really... Dude... You and I BOTH know (wink-wink) that they are the same thing. If you don't contribute, the Company does NOT match, as there is nothing to match f-ing with! Even with a 401k base contribution, AND a match, the company comes out ahead in terms of compensation costs over a pension!

Did Delta Mamagment not explain this to you?

 

[CremaDiLimone]

Undermining would be that we'd publicly say we're fighting for it, while behind the scenes we're making side deals with the airline in exchange for it.

to me, that is not undermining.

as members of a union, what we have is a republic, not a democracy.

we elect officials to represent us, collectively. politicians don't say one thing and behind the scenes, do another?

the assoc. should be feeling out the company to make a deal (imo), because it's apparent to everyone that the company has drawn a red line about the lus insurance. it's 2018, not 1949...some people need to get their heads around that.

they also need to remember that top level execs, whom they once worked for at america west/us air, are the ones that want to take away their insurance, not twu members.

 

[AANOTOK]

Since you have stated that the LUS medical could possibly get chopped, you have now officially became a IGM non union member. How dare you.

 

[NYer]

to me, that is not undermining.

as members of a union, what we have is a republic, not a democracy.

we elect officials to represent us, collectively. politicians don't say one thing and behind the scenes, do another?

the assoc. should be feeling out the company to make a deal (imo), because it's apparent to everyone that the company has drawn a red line about the lus insurance. it's 2018, not 1949...some people need to get their heads around that.

they also need to remember that top level execs, whom they once worked for at america west/us air, are the ones that want to take away their insurance, not twu members.

It isn't easy to make that type of decision on something that has a tangible and real value.

The challenge to these negotiations is that the IAM is fighting to keep some of what they value and prioritize, while the TWU is hoping to gain some of their lost prizes. It is a difficult spot to be in as an Association.

I wish that dynamic was explained a little more so we wouldn't have the expectation that they would just walk away from their medical even if some believe that will be the ultimate outcome.

 

[Tim Nelson]

Disagree. The IAM medical issue is not a secret even though few wanted to talk about it as being a possible "must have" for the airline. That idea was scoffed at.

Undermining would be that we'd publicly say we're fighting for it, while behind the scenes we're making side deals with the airline in exchange for it.

If we're to maximize the return, then we need to be honest about where we stand.

that may be exactly what happens.

 

[Kev3188]

Not really... Dude...

Yes really...Dude.

Here's his question:

If they mgmt dont want to keep putting in to the IAM pension then would they want to offer a 401K with a match and if so how much...4. 5 .6 etc would they be willing?

...And here is your non-answer:

Simple... with the 401k there is not going to be a match for 100% of the group, simply because the full 100% will never conribute to begin with.
With the pension, the Company HAS to contribute for every single member regardless...

Now, if you were the company, which would you prefer?

So do you actually have a relevant answer for Robbed, or are you just posting to post?

Did Delta Mamagment not explain this to you?

No. I learned about the value of 401k's from my IAM brothers and sisters in DL143 a bazillion years ago. Some of the best advice I ever got, tbh.

P.S. A savvy NC would have long ago costed out the difference in "ask" between DC and DB plans, and used the difference to boost other areas of the contract.

You know, to better the lives of the people they serve,


...Or maybe they can just do silly sh*t like double down on a fairly weak multi-employer plan, and talk about the "3 legs of the stool." Whatevs...

 

[Tim Nelson]

Yes really...Dude.

Here's his question:



...And here is your non-answer:



So do you actually have a relevant answer for Robbed, or are you just posting to post?



No. I learned about the value of 401k's from my IAM brothers and sisters in DL143 a bazillion years ago. Some of the best advice I ever got, tbh.

P.S. A savvy NC would have long ago costed out the difference in "ask" between DC and DB plans, and used the difference to boost other areas of the contract.

You know, to better the lives of the people they serve,


...Or maybe they can just do silly sh*t like double down on a fairly weak multi-employer plan, and talk about the "3 legs of the stool." Whatevs...

with the iam pension info out, and depleted another 500 million in just one year, im not sure why any of us has to discuss this. The iam pension is unsustainable and will follow the path of its sister pension, ie., the iam motor city pension, and cut all remaining benefits other than the small number guaranteed by the pbgc ($34 a month).

 

[P. REZ]

Yes really...Dude.

Here's his question:



...And here is your non-answer:



So do you actually have a relevant answer for Robbed, or are you just posting to post?



No. I learned about the value of 401k's from my IAM brothers and sisters in DL143 a bazillion years ago. Some of the best advice I ever got, tbh.

P.S. A savvy NC would have long ago costed out the difference in "ask" between DC and DB plans, and used the difference to boost other areas of the contract.

You know, to better the lives of the people they serve,


...Or maybe they can just do silly sh*t like double down on a fairly weak multi-employer plan, and talk about the "3 legs of the stool." Whatevs...

Kev3188,

I guess that 401k advice people didn't tell you that the people that came up with the 401k did so as a supplement to a pension. They also believe that the first wave of retirees of the 401k, did poorly. Oh well, I guess those 401K inventors are silly about their thoughts on what they tried to accomplish.

I do understand people's issue with how pensions have been treated to scare many people away, however, labor should be fighting for corporate America to contribute to a pension and 401k. It should be a company pension too. Or we can buy into this bs narrative of how pensions suck and 401k's are awesome.

P. Rez

 

[PIEDMONT784]

Yes really...Dude.

Here's his question:



...And here is your non-answer:



So do you actually have a relevant answer for Robbed, or are you just posting to post?



No. I learned about the value of 401k's from my IAM brothers and sisters in DL143 a bazillion years ago. Some of the best advice I ever got, tbh.

P.S. A savvy NC would have long ago costed out the difference in "ask" between DC and DB plans, and used the difference to boost other areas of the contract.

You know, to better the lives of the people they serve,


...Or maybe they can just do silly sh*t like double down on a fairly weak multi-employer plan, and talk about the "3 legs of the stool." Whatevs...

The poster that asked the original question... gave it a "liked"-- and never complained about the answer. The only two posters here that it apparently hit a nerve with, are you/nelson....

Not suprising...

>SPIT<

 

[Kev3188]

Kev3188,

I guess that 401k advice people didn't tell you that the people that came up with the 401k did so as a supplement to a pension. They also believe that the first wave of retirees of the 401k, did poorly. Oh well, I guess those 401K inventors are silly about their thoughts on what they tried to accomplish.

I do understand people's issue with how pensions have been treated to scare many people away, however, labor should be fighting for corporate America to contribute to a pension and 401k. It should be a company pension too. Or we can buy into this bs narrative of how pensions suck and 401k's are awesome.

P. Rez

Is an (unfrozen) company pension currently on the table at AA?

Pensions don’t suck per se; they just handcuff workers either to the plan themselves or a company. Bosses know that and use it as leverage all the time.
You might be cool with that (I certainly don’t expect ypu to say other wise), but I’m not.

 

[Kev3188]

The poster that asked the original question... gave it a "liked"-- and never complained about the answer. The only two posters here that it apparently hit a nerve with, are you/nelson....

Not suprising...

>SPIT<

I didn’t realize you were so desperate for affirmation. My mistake.

 

[P. REZ]

Is an (unfrozen) company pension currently on the table at AA?

Pensions don’t suck per se; they just handcuff workers either to the plan themselves or a company. Bosses know that and use it as leverage all the time.
You might be cool with that (I certainly don’t expect ypu to say other wise), but I’m not.

Considering you didn't leave after your merger, I think your fine being handcuffed to your job. I've never heard that excuse, handcuffed, to talk badly about a pension. If pensions were the norm like they were before, you could vest in one pension, move to another job and vest in that pension and so on. Just think, you could have several pensions and that would really be diversifying.

P. Rez