American Airlines and Labor Negotiations

[CremaDiLimone]

That is ONLY if Isom and Parker STILL say Delta plus 3%. Don’t forget all the other promises that fell by the wayside when delta or United’s wages increase

ok, and when ua passes dl in december? then what?

ua will be at $31.23/hr and that is without differential.

3% more than that is apprx. $32.15/hr, not far off from my $32.75/hr DOS range.

with $75 oil, i'm starting to believe we'll have to take a pay cut.

 

[Tim Nelson]

It’s called solidarity.

no. sito cuts deals with management by dividing the groups against eachother.

 

[Tim Nelson]

again..

dl also has shareholders. dl just gave most of it's employees a 3% raise and financially enhanced ready reserve.

again..

parker has stated the company will earn money with $100+ oil and that fares will catch up to oil prices.

again..

those EMPIRICAL examples don't count in the $70 oil/aa contract hypothesis...but, your hypotheticals count?

we all know that dl can take this or that away. that is your argument to aa $70 oil/assoc. contract? ok. to me, that is a flimsy argument that $70 oil will negatively impact our contract.

clearly, dl hasn't thought the recent 3% raise & associated expenses any kind of financial burden with $70 oil. if it did, it wouldn't have given out the raises.

as far as a mediator and $70 oil -

when aa whines to the mediator that southwest or dl only has x-amount of AMTs and does this much o/h outsourcing...watch our people tell the mediator what percentage of pre-tax profits southwest and dl pay profit sharing to their employees.

you've already dismissed that scenario, while you tell us the mediator will acknowledge that southwest & delta have fewer AMTs and outsource more.

in your mind, have you ever lost any semblance of a debate on this board?

delta is driving up the wages of competition. After a AA deal, Delta will contract out alot of jobs imo.

 

[AANOTOK]

The company holds all the cards right now, the Association holds nothing. The closer section 6 gets, the higher oil rises, the stronger the companies hand gets. I don't have the answer, but I've seen this game played before.

 

[CremaDiLimone]

delta is driving up the wages of competition. After a AA deal, Delta will contract out alot of jobs imo.

fair enough, that's your opinion.

if dl bends over backwards to keep unions off the premises, might this and also pulling it's 3% raise...compel many more dl people to organize?

i would think so.

 

[CremaDiLimone]

I don't have the answer, but I've seen this game played before.

i saw this in 1995 and don't want it to happen again.

the company argued backwards (gulf war/bush recession) but had it's eye on the future (economy improving). did the doomsday warnings pan out?

aa went on to it's best 5-6 financial years until recent times...and we had a $h!t sandwich contract.

the twu dropped the ball. 5-6 lost years.

 

[AANOTOK]

ok, and when ua passes dl in december? then what?

ua will be at $31.23/hr and that is without differential.

3% more than that is apprx. $32.15/hr, not far off from my $32.75/hr DOS range.

with $75 oil, i'm starting to believe we'll have to take a pay cut.

Not sure about a pay cut, but you can bet once this makes it to section 6 the game changes.
Lets not forget, the Flight Attendants and Pilots will be on the radar "AGAIN" and there is only so much pie to slice.

 

[CremaDiLimone]

the 'pay cut' is after reading some posts here about $70 oil. i'm being sarcastic.

 

[AANOTOK]

the 'pay cut' is after reading some posts here about $70 oil. i'm being sarcastic.

OK, I didn't graduate at the top of my class... 😉

 

[B737 driver]

I don't believe it, it looks like some of us are starting to read from the same page, we all can, and should agree that THIS contract is like no other, spawned form a forced merger, in my opinion no one wanted, and to complicate things, in an environment with economic volatility and political instability over seas. Keeping with conventional thinking in always reject the first offer thinking the counter offer will get better may in this contract have a adverse effect.

It's called common sense, over here in SWA land we maintained our scope, Mechanics will go to $51, retro paid back to April first. A 91 million signing bonus to be paid $74 million this year, and $17 million in 2019. We have me too clauses for 401k and medical if any other group gets it. We kept the ETOPS in the 48 states. We got language gain for new maintenance stations that they have to keep them open for 3 years. If they close them they have to give you 1 year notice, and pay you $25,000, plus moving expenses.We also gained carry over of Vacation , we never had that before. By the end of the contract if it passes mechanics would be at $57 an hour topped out. The leads 6 % above that, which I am . Maintenance controllers make out the best. If ratified and they have 6 years seniority or more , they go immediately to $64 an hour. Maintenance Training same pay as leads. Yes they are so terrible to us, that Swampy thinks, but don't look at the surrounding circumstances, hold out for a year or more , for that 2% more.

 

[NYer]

again..

(1) dl also has shareholders. dl just gave most of it's employees a 3% raise and financially enhanced ready reserve.

again..

(2) parker has stated the company will earn money with $100+ oil and that fares will catch up to oil prices.

again..

(3) those EMPIRICAL examples don't count in the $70 oil/aa contract hypothesis...but, your hypotheticals count?

we all know that dl can take this or that away. that is your argument to aa $70 oil/assoc. contract? ok. to me, that is a flimsy argument that $70 oil will negatively impact our contract.

clearly, dl hasn't thought the recent 3% raise & associated expenses any kind of financial burden with $70 oil. if it did, it wouldn't have given out the raises.

as far as a mediator and $70 oil -

when aa whines to the mediator that southwest or dl only has x-amount of AMTs and does this much o/h outsourcing...watch our people tell the mediator what percentage of pre-tax profits southwest and dl pay profit sharing to their employees.

you've already dismissed that scenario, while you tell us the mediator will acknowledge that southwest & delta have fewer AMTs and outsource more.

in your mind, have you ever lost any semblance of a debate on this board?

1. And if the shareholders, Wall Street or any external force dictates a change in the expenses, they can make that adjustment immediately. There is no need for negotiations and there is no need to wait. That flexibility gives them an advantage to be more nimble in the marketplace.

2. When you got the raise in August of 2016, did you tell your lawn service guy that you can pay him more than your neighbor does because you're making more money than you did in July of 2016?

Don't think I said $70 oil will impact our JCBA or that singular event would affect the ultimate outcome of the JCBA. The point is, there are external factors that have an impact on our negotiations, such as higher oil prices, and we need to take those into account rather than ignore them or explain them away. The goal is to maximize our return and included in that formula is the outside forces that also contribute to an opportunity rising or falling.

This isn't a debate, it the sharing of different perspectives. There doesn't have to be a winner or a loser, but we should be more informed and we should consider different points of view.

 

[Tim Nelson]

Very well said.

bob, delta guy here said that they get a higher shift diffdr in october. You still have that delta correspondence?

 

[CremaDiLimone]

Don't think I said $70 oil will impact our JCBA or that singular event would affect the ultimate outcome of the JCBA. The point is, there are external factors that have an impact on our negotiations, such as higher oil prices, and we need to take those into account rather than ignore them or explain them away. The goal is to maximize our return and included in that formula is the outside forces that also contribute to an opportunity rising or falling.

This isn't a debate, it the sharing of different perspectives. There doesn't have to be a winner or a loser, but we should be more informed and we should consider different points of view.

no one is arguing much of that. yes, optimally, oil would be in a $45-$55 price range for airlines. analysts will tell you that higher oil keeps discipline...no fare wars, outrageous capacity growth...etc. with the consolidation in the airline industry, these positives are only compounded to the good.

this whole debate is about $70 oil and how it will impact our contract negotiations. go back and read the nervousness. my contention is that $70 oil will not break our backs, certainly not the company's backs.

sure, if oil goes to $115 by july, there's a problem.

what if oil settles back to $63?

 

[CremaDiLimone]

I don't believe it, it looks like some of us are starting to read from the same page, we all can, and should agree that THIS contract is like no other, spawned form a forced merger, in my opinion no one wanted, and to complicate things, in an environment with economic volatility and political instability over seas. Keeping with conventional thinking in always reject the first offer thinking the counter offer will get better may in this contract have a adverse effect.

bob, you're the guy that was worried about our august 2016 raises.

if we took the company's deal, by december, everyone and their mother would be ahead of us, wage-wise.

also, i tried to explain once why some guys in my station with 35-40 years liked what the company offered...because of exactly what you just said above: volatility and instability.

you disliked the post. fair enough. now, you just posted the same thing.

 

[CremaDiLimone]

OK, I didn't graduate at the top of my class... 😉

we are FSCs, we didn't need to graduate at the top.