American Airlines and Labor Negotiations

[WeAAsles]

im just being realistic. Ethically, its morally reasonable to feed all remaining oxygen bottles to sustain its life even though such life will be unsustainable and be certain death.

My only hope isnt the math rez uses that assumes this unhealthy plan is going to spring to a newness of life and run a 4 minute mile.

im looking at the numbers of sustenance. And so the only thing we can count on is the pbgc. Presently, with 15 years in the plan, im guaranteed $6,000 a year. And thats only if congress approves more of the company contributions going towards insurance instead of a benefit schedule (which means less).

Look, I dont need Prez to post scenerios which assume pension health because i can find that on the pension page.

The undeniable fact is that its unsustainable and losing $500 million a year. Has nothing to do with stocks. Hell, it actually outperformed to S&P! But that doesnt mean squat.

Tim you know that you are misrepresenting Prez. I’ve seen him also make equations assuming a future second cut to the IAMPF and he still supports the idea of the Pension as a retirement addition.

He’s been pretty steady at supporting the multiple stool philosophy.

Where WE all go wrong is not pushing more kids into the direction that they need to get in that 401k. Match or no match.

I like that AA right now makes a 3% Contribution at least. It does get people started and when they start to see their savings go up over time they might start putting in more.

And I’m sorry I’ve said before that I understand your reasons for wanting out and in your shoes I might feel the same way. But over exaggerating the Doom and Gloom scenario is where you always lose me and others. Saying a plan that has 10 Billion in assets and 11 Billion (Over many many years) in liabilities is the Titanic is ridiculous.

But yea maybe, maybe in the future the Fund will need some tweaking? Maybe? But I’m sure it won’t be another 40% cut on future benefits.

 

[ALUS78]

Weez is back in the house!

The last you left it was for about four years, this time you couldn’t last a full week. What happened? Hope the Mustang is doing okay, say hello to Michael & Javier for me!

Josh

Hes a hell of a man that Josh is

 

[ALUS78]

I knew you would probably put info up. C'mon Tim, why do you post inaccurate stuff?

P. Rez

How else to get his point across?

 

[ALUS78]

looking at that list I might have to up date it, things have changed a lot.

Although I dont think you can be as dangerous with a camera as you were with a circuit breaker I could see you backing off a cliff trying to get a good shot

 

[The Prophet]

yes. What does it matter if congress doesnt get involved? the pbgc multi employer funds will be gone in about 5 years....just for union pensions.

You know who funds that? Yep, we do as our funds are required to pay into it.
You know who Martinez wants to pay "more" into the pbgc funding? Yep, us participants. Remember, public funds arent used to build up the coffers of the pbgc for union pensions. Union members get screwed all around on these plans.

Another thing is that i asked you if you could have your 120% funded pension help us out. Years back, the grand lodge pension was boosted with our iam pension funds. Dont be so greedy rez, have a heart, make a motion to take funds from your grand lodge pension and sink into the iam pension.

https://www.investopedia.com/articles/retirement/06/pbgc.asp

How PBGC Is Funded
While the PBGC is a federal agency, it not funded with tax dollars. Instead, it is funded by premiums* collected from defined-benefit plan sponsors, assets from defined-benefit plans for which it serves as trustee, recoveries in bankruptcy from former plan sponsors and with earnings from invested assets.

*For 2013, the flat-rate-per-participant premium for single employer plans was increased from $35 to $42. The multi-employer premium will remain at $9 per participant. Rates will be adjusted for cost of living adjustment (COLA), indexed to national average wages.



Read more: An Overview Of The Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation (PBGC) https://www.investopedia.com/articles/retirement/06/pbgc.asp#ixzz5FPbSHkMU
Follow us: Investopedia on Facebook

 

[Jester]

So are you saying that you would prefer all these plans just be left to die? Better to just bury your head in the sand and pretend that a problem doesn’t exist?

Is the only solution in your mind for “YOU” to abandon ship and hope the life raft you jumped in brings you to safe, warm shores?

1.5 Million Retirees Await Congressional Fix for a Pension Time Bomb

“If concern over retirees is not enough to get lawmakers to act, those who represent pension funds hope that concern about the broader economy will. Michael D. Scott, executive director for the National Coordinating Committee for Multiemployer Plans, projects that if all of the pension plans that are in “critical” and “critical and declining” condition go broke, the federal government would face a half trillion dollars in lost tax revenue over the next decade because of the taxes that the active funds currently pay.

“I think ultimately the government is going to look at how much tax revenue it is going to lose without a solution,” Mr. Scott said.”

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2018/02/18/business/multiemployer-pension-crisis.html

I am sure if there were to ever be an extensive forensic accounting of these pensions, there would be some serious malfeasance and mismanagement discovered. I never quite understood how money received and supposedly invested in the decades prior to a given employee's retirement would be subject to such uncertainty as the typical rates of return had an implicit 6% rate of return (or even less). Were there miscalculations on actuarial assumptions? Over promises, in particular, to older employees with little time in pension before retirement? Bad investment decisions? Let's not forget that those who are never vested becomes essentially free money to the pension. It will be a tough sell to the public for a massive bail-out for pensions, as 401Ks have performed relatively well during the past 40 years.

While some with tinfoil hats complain about some conspiracy of ERISA, we need to review why it came into being as your link provided. Corporate bankruptcy, in particular, liquidation of a company and its pension would lead to no benefits. ERISA while far from perfect, it provides some oversight and establish regulations of pension administration, and the creation of the PBGC. For those old enough to remember the bankruptcy liquidation of mega conglomerate LTV, it would have left 82,000 mostly union retirees with nothing after decades of service.

 

[WeAAsles]

I am sure if there were to ever be an extensive forensic accounting of these pensions, there would be some serious malfeasance and mismanagement discovered. I never quite understood how money received and supposedly invested in the decades prior to a given employee's retirement would be subject to such uncertainty as the typical rates of return had an implicit 6% rate of return (or even less). Were there miscalculations on actuarial assumptions? Over promises, in particular, to older employees with little time in pension before retirement? Bad investment decisions? Let's not forget that those who are never vested becomes essentially free money to the pension. It will be a tough sell to the public for a massive bail-out for pensions, as 401Ks have performed relatively well during the past 40 years.

While some with tinfoil hats complain about some conspiracy of ERISA, we need to review why it came into being as your link provided. Corporate bankruptcy, in particular, liquidation of a company and its pension would lead to no benefits. ERISA while far from perfect, it provides some oversight and establish regulations of pension administration, and the creation of the PBGC. For those old enough to remember the bankruptcy liquidation of mega conglomerate LTV, it would have left 82,000 mostly union retirees with nothing after decades of service.

Well Jester I don’t want to go too far down this Rabbit Hole cause we’ve basically covered it to death here but your IAMNPF is no where near being one of the plans that’s in distress. I’ve never been one that likes people who overdramatize something to gain their preferred agenda.

But since it’s you guys who are in it and I’m not even sure it will ultimately be even offered to me you guys can advocate for whatever you feel best suits your needs.

I just think it’s extremely important you have all the FACTS and not maybe just an opinion based on emotions, fear or even something else.


What are multiemployer pension plans?
Multiemployer pension plans are retirement plans negotiated by a union with a group of employers typically in the same industry. Collective bargaining contracts say how much the employers must contribute to the plans for their employees. The plans are run by trustees selected by the union and the employers. The trustees typically determine the amounts that the plans will pay in lifetime monthly benefits.

“”””””””There are more than 10 million workers and retirees in 1,400 multiemployer plans.”””””””””””

For more information, read this Introduction to Multiemployer Plans fact sheet from the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation (PBGC), the federal agency that insures most private pension plans.

are adequately funded, but some plans are projected to run out of money within 20 years.

could run out of money within the next 20 years. The PBGC estimates that roughly one-third of the affected participants are in two large plans in the trucking and mining industries.

http://www.pensionrights.org/publications/fact-sheet/facts-about-multiemployer-pension-plan-funding

 

[Buck]

Do you know what Martinez is asking for? He wants congress to approve higher pbgc funding levels with pension participants money. So, as participants we would have to pay more. That is Labor organization friendly but not worker friendly.

A few years ago, the labor organizations sought relief from obama. He signed a multi employer friendly bill to allow unions to cut retirees checks.
You guys are either paid pollyannas in loyal service to an organization or complete morons not to understand that this is wickedly bad stuff that will destroy lives.

A very good Reason for the LAA's to stay away from this.

 

[The Prophet]

A very good Reason for the LAA's to stay away from this.

Nice to see you take your retirement advice from a baggage handler.

 

[Tim Nelson]

https://www.investopedia.com/articles/retirement/06/pbgc.asp

How PBGC Is Funded
While the PBGC is a federal agency, it not funded with tax dollars. Instead, it is funded by premiums* collected from defined-benefit plan sponsors, assets from defined-benefit plans for which it serves as trustee, recoveries in bankruptcy from former plan sponsors and with earnings from invested assets.

*For 2013, the flat-rate-per-participant premium for single employer plans was increased from $35 to $42. The multi-employer premium will remain at $9 per participant. Rates will be adjusted for cost of living adjustment (COLA), indexed to national average wages.



Read more: An Overview Of The Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation (PBGC) https://www.investopedia.com/articles/retirement/06/pbgc.asp#ixzz5FPbSHkMU
Follow us: Investopedia on Facebook

exactly, i already covered that and the fact that martinez appeal to congress is to squeeze more out of participants.

 

[The Prophet]

Participants don’t pay, the company contributing pays or the fund management.

No money is taken from your benefits to pay the insurance fee to the PBGC.

 

[Tim Nelson]

Tim you know that you are misrepresenting Prez. I’ve seen him also make equations assuming a future second cut to the IAMPF and he still supports the idea of the Pension as a retirement addition.

He’s been pretty steady at supporting the multiple stool philosophy.

Where WE all go wrong is not pushing more kids into the direction that they need to get in that 401k. Match or no match.

I like that AA right now makes a 3% Contribution at least. It does get people started and when they start to see their savings go up over time they might start putting in more.

And I’m sorry I’ve said before that I understand your reasons for wanting out and in your shoes I might feel the same way. But over exaggerating the Doom and Gloom scenario is where you always lose me and others. Saying a plan that has 10 Billion in assets and 11 Billion (Over many many years) in liabilities is the Titanic is ridiculous.

But yea maybe, maybe in the future the Fund will need some tweaking? Maybe? But I’m sure it won’t be another 40% cut on future benefits.

View attachment 12797

yea so i bet you only read the wage scale as well instead of understanding the truth behind those numbers.
As an example, next year the motor city plan will be in the green and have great numbers.

And if they cut our pension next year, i guarantee that the funding notice will look much better with maybe a billion future liabilities wiped off and 105%+ overfunded.
It will be green and overfunded but my pension would be cut in half again. Sorta like watering a green grass in las....as long as you keep watering. Our plan was boosted when it was 97% funded up to 108% funding. But like that green grass in las, it gets a bit yellow then brown if it isnt watered because it cant sustain itself.
Our pension is getting close to yellow. Unless you can demonstrate some new sustaining resource, your opinion is baseless.

 

[WeAAsles]

yea so i bet you only read the wage scale as well instead of understanding the truth behind those numbers.
As an example, next year the motor city plan will be in the green and have great numbers.

And if they cut our pension next year, i guarantee that the funding notice will look much better with maybe a billion future liabilities wiped off and 105%+ overfunded.
It will be green and overfunded but my pension would be cut in half again. Sorta like watering a green grass in las....as long as you keep watering. Our plan was boosted when it was 97% funded up to 108% funding. But like that green grass in las, it gets a bit yellow then brown if it isnt watered because it cant sustain itself.
Our pension is getting close to yellow. Unless you can demonstrate some new sustaining resource, your opinion is baseless.

I didn’t give an “opinion” on what’s going to happen to your fund. Those are things you do although you never say it’s your opinion.

And again I have zero interest in getting into the weeds with you on what currently as I can tell you view as a problem that is yours and not mine.

You had a crack in your foundation that was repaired but to you and maybe you’re right it wasn’t repaired well enough and the crack is reappearing.

Again maybe you’re right? It’s your House man.
;-)

 

[Buck]

Nice to see you take your retirement advice from a baggage handler.

Just because I ask a question does not mean I am going to adhere to the advice. Since you asked, I want nothing to do with it and will stick with
my 401k, my AA Pension and above all else Social Security which I have more faith in than the IAMPF.

On top of that some look to me and others to discuss this issue. I have yet to find an AA Mechanic that is even considering this pension.
Even a young Mechanic would be safer in his 401k than the IAMPF.

 

[Buck]

exactly, i already covered that and the fact that martinez appeal to congress is to squeeze more out of participants.

Who is Martinez?