American looking to "right-size" the company and staffing levels for the Fall and 2021

[swamt]

WARN deadlines are approaching, which is why you saw UA issue their release. One of my friends heard that the cuts are going as deep as 2002 seniority in some workgroups... I can't imagine having 18 years and being on the bubble...



That's just kicking the can for the inevitable.



Yep, AA does appear to suck less than DL and UA because they have less international to deal with, but that may be temporary. Europe and Asia are on the upswing, and Brasil and Latin America are a ways off from any meaningful recovery...

I can't imagine that myself. The article below brakes it down to individual groups and the number from those groups. Hopefully these are just inflated numbers to draw attention to the gov. to step in and extend the PPP. The media certainly sucked it up and is running hard with the United and AA numbers big time.
Yes, it may be kicking the can, but, I would rather keep folks working until hopefully a vaccine is out and a cure can be had to save lives, then the economy could start to spring back, although it will be slow probably. That is the main reason behind my statement of extending, primarily in hopes of a cure be out by end of year or early next year. At least get thru the holidays but would rather see assistance last to March 2021.

 

[AMFAinMIAMI]

Holy crap. That's 45% of United's employees. Remember AA said 20-30%, will they now have to increase those numbers to match or at least better to compete with cost? I hope they don't just as you say, monkey see, monkey do just because they can. I was NOT expecting that large of a number from United.
I did read one article that broke the numbers down with 5500-5900 being in maint at United. And I think Towbar posted around 40% that is huge % compared to what AA announced around 20-30%.
I also assume that all these numbers will be less after employees take the leaves and Early Outs, question is how much less??? The United numbers are, to say the least, scary.

SWAMT, If you read this article do you have a link to it? UAL has what approx 8k mechanics, cutting that many would remove the midnight shift from the entire system. It would also cut O/H shops, leaving not much more than line maintenance. That would also be the same effect at AA if they cut 3k-4k mechanics.
The whole concept during a layoff is seniority, so the amount of bumping and rebid of shifts and transfers from shops to the line major task. Not all mechanics are fleet qualified across the multiple aircraft types at UAL and AA. Unlike SWA that has just 737's. You throw in the cost for badging at each station background checks, and all the airport requirements to drive and operate equipment, parking. VERY BIG cost. GPM's at each carrier require Aircraft to be put into storage in a certain way to protect them until needed. so unless the airlines is planning on dumping some of its fleet the need to keep maintenance will still be there. Each day aircraft are being jacked tires rotated, static ports and covers place to protect system are put on/off, along with all the checks required to keep them airworthy.

Packaging employees out, cuts the cost the most effective way. Stops payments into 401k's, dumps vacation, cuts high hourly pay rated employees, employee medical costs go down due to a younger workforce. ect...

What is SWA plan for the few mechanics they have, what is it 3-4k.?
If they cut at SWA the same to stay competitive as its been said SWA would be down to contracting out even it's line maintenance?
What has your AMFA leadership been telling you guys they will do if that happens?

 

[Kev3188]

These numbers shouldn’t shock anyone. We’ve all had months to get ready for whatever may come on 10/1. Anyone that thought everything would just be ok has been fooling themselves.

 

[Kev3188]

@AMFAinMIAMI— Those numbers have been shared pretty widely across the Internet. I don’t have a link right now, but have seen them on multiple sites/platforms.

 

[AMFAinMIAMI]

These numbers shouldn’t shock anyone. We’ve all had months to get ready for whatever may come on 10/1. Anyone that thought everything would just be ok has been fooling themselves.

KEV3188

you are correct most of the airline people have had these months to prepare for whatever is going to happen. What I'm saying is I do not believe the cuts in M&R will be a high for the reasons I stated. If I am correct you work fleet/ramp at DL? Most of the posters here are from that same work group. A few from M&R.

NOT putting any work group down in any way, F/A's training not a long term thing to get started, the same for fleet/ramp/stores. Pilots and aircraft maintenance different story. FAA licenses have to be kept current. In M&R constant CBT is required, flight time/sym time to keep quals. for pilots. Just the nature of the Biz.
At DL they can do whatever they want NO Unions. At UAL, & AA & SWA ect...contracts are in place as to how cuts are made. FAA and NTSB and manufacturers requirements for the safety of the aircraft has to be maintained.

I don't want to see anyone get cut but as most of you still believe it will happen then keep the anxiety levels of those in the industry high by the constant chatter of job loss.

With the flexible schedules allowed in Fleet/ramp most from my understanding have other employment, F/A as well have small biz and other stuff going on.
MGMT that has been cut not so much opportunities but better now than later if the big cut comes.

 

[Rogallo]

These numbers shouldn’t shock anyone. We’ve all had months to get ready for whatever may come on 10/1. Anyone that thought everything would just be ok has been fooling themselves.

Sorry.....can't help myself!

 

[CremaDiLimone]

At least get thru the holidays but would rather see assistance last to March 2021.

i agree, you can't have all the airlines filing bk...again. their credit is shot anyways - what bank/capital group in their right mind would ever loan money to an airline again??

i believe this is one reason the govt. got it's arms around this quickly in the spring. no travelers = no revenues = the horsemen of the apocalypse.

the airlines were unfairly criticized by those who's payrolls weren't protected by the govt. hmmmm, special disaster funds for a rainy day??? right. apple and microsoft have billions on the side, not for a disaster, but for special dividends. the airlines' money for decades went to chevron and bp and exxon for jet fuel. $150+ oil in the late 2000s.

i'd like to see the help extended - even with payrolls covered and low-interest loans, airlines are still burning $30-$35 million a day. this is not tenable.

the hurdle is extending govt. help/layoffs. the optics are very bad. someone needs to take charge here and make a decision, popular or unpopular.

 

[ALUS78]

KEV3188

you are correct most of the airline people have had these months to prepare for whatever is going to happen. What I'm saying is I do not believe the cuts in M&R will be a high for the reasons I stated. If I am correct you work fleet/ramp at DL? Most of the posters here are from that same work group. A few from M&R.

NOT putting any work group down in any way, F/A's training not a long term thing to get started, the same for fleet/ramp/stores. Pilots and aircraft maintenance different story. FAA licenses have to be kept current. In M&R constant CBT is required, flight time/sym time to keep quals. for pilots. Just the nature of the Biz.
At DL they can do whatever they want NO Unions. At UAL, & AA & SWA ect...contracts are in place as to how cuts are made. FAA and NTSB and manufacturers requirements for the safety of the aircraft has to be maintained.

I don't want to see anyone get cut but as most of you still believe it will happen then keep the anxiety levels of those in the industry high by the constant chatter of job loss.

With the flexible schedules allowed in Fleet/ramp most from my understanding have other employment, F/A as well have small biz and other stuff going on.
MGMT that has been cut not so much opportunities but better now than later if the big cut comes.

Not to worry if they cant get qualified AMTS they will send the work elsewhere. Regrettably youre going to get thrown off your horse soon.I cant see someone with your time in the industry thinking the way you do, its like you haven't experienced the industry at all

 

[Rogallo]

I'm wondering what the sequel will be titled?

 

[AMFAinMIAMI]

Not to worry if they cant get qualified AMTS they will send the work elsewhere. Regrettably youre going to get thrown off your horse soon.I cant see someone with your time in the industry thinking the way you do, its like you haven't experienced the industry at all

ALUS

I am NOT on any horse, I have 41 yrs in the industry, 23 at AA. I have NEVER been laid off but have gone through 5 BK's. AA is airline #5. All the others are gone for one reason or another. But that was back in the day when if you had 3 aircraft you could run an airline. I have seen all the BS that the industry can/has thrown at the employees. And "YES" I have walked a picket line standing up for what I believed was right and my fellow employees. Something the USAir men/woman did not do. They just folded like a deck of cards. The M&R guys there let the IAM trick them over and over. That might be the case that carriers send work else where but will the American Public and the AFLCIO that both the TWU/IAM talk so proudly about, let that happen?

History repeats itself how many times have you heard that. That is why I believe the way I do and I will act that way NO Matter how the rest of the M&R workgroup think or feel. I Learned this By working with the BEST Mechanics the airlines has ever seen. EASTERN AIRLINES.

I am asking you, YOU work fleet/ramp? If that is the case then you know Nothing about my class and craft. At one time it was a GREAT job, but the industrial unions have let it turn into something I am NOT proud to be a part of any longer.

That is WHY I want to Bring AMFA here to AA, they may fail as well but the decisions will be made by the membership NOT a BUS driver or Train worker from NY and with the UAL guys it's Truck drivers (IBT).

 

[robbedagain]

Rogallo the info I received came from Baskett in CLT. He tries to keep us posted If states shut down it'll be worse

 

[eolesen]

the hurdle is extending govt. help/layoffs. the optics are very bad. someone needs to take charge here and make a decision, popular or unpopular.

The unpopular decision of layoffs is probably the right one. Airlines need to get back onto a footing where the cash burn is closer to zero. You can’t do that carrying 25% more employees (and 25% more exposure to benefits expense). Nor can you do it by keeping people on full time hours and benefits when you only have need for staffing a couple hours per day.

Extending CARES protections into the slowest revenue generating quarters will only make things worse. If you can’t control salary, you have to cut what you can control i.e. sell or return leased airplanes, drop facility leases, and cancel upcoming airplane orders. All that would cripple an airline’s ability to bring their people back and could permanently open up opportunities for airlines who can afford to take on those gates or airplane orders. And yes, there are airlines in better shape and able to take some risks.

 

[Kev3188]

KEV3188

you are correct most of the airline people have had these months to prepare for whatever is going to happen. What I'm saying is I do not believe the cuts in M&R will be a high for the reasons I stated. If I am correct you work fleet/ramp at DL? Most of the posters here are from that same work group. A few from M&R.

I am fleet at DL.

I also agree with you that getting a WARN letter doesn't automoatically mean you're getting cut, and that EO's and VLOA's will certainly offset those stated numbers.

NOT putting any work group down in any way, F/A's training not a long term thing to get started, the same for fleet/ramp/stores. Pilots and aircraft maintenance different story. FAA licenses have to be kept current. In M&R constant CBT is required, flight time/sym time to keep quals. for pilots. Just the nature of the Biz.
At DL they can do whatever they want NO Unions. At UAL, & AA & SWA ect...contracts are in place as to how cuts are made. FAA and NTSB and manufacturers requirements for the safety of the aircraft has to be maintained.

This isn't a class/craft issue. This is a potential extinction event for the industry (or at least 1-2 carriers). You and I have both been around long enough to know this is much worse than 9/11, SARS, 2008, or anything else. A license or training currency won't automatically save anyone.

I don't want to see anyone get cut but as most of you still believe it will happen then keep the anxiety levels of those in the industry high by the constant chatter of job loss.

Me either, but the best way to lower anxiety is to face things head-on. There is an almost magical thinking sweeping through our industry. It started with "this'll only last a few weeks" and has just continued. It's good to have optimism, but people need to be very clear-eyed about where we're at, and where we're going.

With the flexible schedules allowed in Fleet/ramp most from my understanding have other employment, F/A as well have small biz and other stuff going on.
MGMT that has been cut not so much opportunities but better now than later if the big cut comes.

Not every ramper or FA has a side hustle. With all due respect, I think you've been in the M&E bubble too long.

Lastly: yes, DL is non-union (expect pilots and dispatch), but that so far, it's been okay. Will they f**k us? Maybe, but that'll be on them if they do. So far, everything we've had to do has meant either people being able to take leaves, or keeping people on the property. For the immediate term, I'm okay with that. Peace.

 

[Kev3188]

i agree, you can't have all the airlines filing bk...again. their credit is shot anyways - what bank/capital group in their right mind would ever loan money to an airline again??

i believe this is one reason the govt. got it's arms around this quickly in the spring. no travelers = no revenues = the horsemen of the apocalypse.

the airlines were unfairly criticized by those who's payrolls weren't protected by the govt. hmmmm, special disaster funds for a rainy day??? right. apple and microsoft have billions on the side, not for a disaster, but for special dividends. the airlines' money for decades went to chevron and bp and exxon for jet fuel. $150+ oil in the late 2000s.

i'd like to see the help extended - even with payrolls covered and low-interest loans, airlines are still burning $30-$35 million a day. this is not tenable.

the hurdle is extending govt. help/layoffs. the optics are very bad. someone needs to take charge here and make a decision, popular or unpopular.

Ideally, the HEROES Act (or whatever it's called) will be aimed at people, and not companies.

The unpopular decision of layoffs is probably the right one. Airlines need to get back onto a footing where the cash burn is closer to zero. You can’t do that carrying 25% more employees (and 25% more exposure to benefits expense). Nor can you do it by keeping people on full time hours and benefits when you only have need for staffing a couple hours per day.

Extending CARES protections into the slowest revenue generating quarters will only make things worse. If you can’t control salary, you have to cut what you can control i.e. sell or return leased airplanes, drop facility leases, and cancel upcoming airplane orders. All that would cripple an airline’s ability to bring their people back and could permanently open up opportunities for airlines who can afford to take on those gates or airplane orders. And yes, there are airlines in better shape and able to take some risks.

Something's gotta give. I don't want to see anyone go under, but my concern is that if we keep slow-walking this, it's only going to get worse. And to be fair, people deserve to know if they're gonna have a spot com 10/1. Just rip the band-aid off already.

 

[1AA]

My concern is layoffs and concessions. You can recover and get called back but concessions stay for a while. So we live with concessions long after the economy recovers and the company will be profitable again. The company will get their concessions from the economical downturn. Them recalls come back and the company still wins over on us. This union is too stupid to have rock solid kick back clauses.