American looking to "right-size" the company and staffing levels for the Fall and 2021

[swamt]

SWAMT;

So how do you guys bid? Is it done by company time? If so then it's ok with you that a 25 yr ramp/fleet person goes and gets an A&P then comes into maintenance with zero experience and bids for your job?

No, not that way at all.
We bid by mechanic seniority (category seniority).
Company time is used for Vac bids.
So a 30 year employee that became a mechanic at 15 years will carry 15 years for bidding purposes and 30 years for bidding vac time off.
In your example above, the 25yr ramp guy will start with day 1 seniority as a mechanic and bid as such.
The other advantage he would have is his company seniority would be used for these company packages being offered for VSP and long term leaves.

 

[T5towbar]

I know that as well but each groups classification is still occupational time or CC time within the workgroup. That is just another reason we need to get rid of the IAM way of doing that. Due to the way the structure is only Jr. guys will end up as CC. Why would anyone with any time become a CC and go to midnights with W/T off and bid last. makes no sense...

I know. We have that problem as well, when we are short of leads, and no one will upgrade. Why would you give that up when you are already topped out.

In my hub, we had to junior man leads to fill open slots. (They had to be trained and watched over). The IAM is big on Classification Time. In my instance, before we merged and became unionized, we kept our original Company Time and even if you upgraded to Lead or moved to the Move Team, you kept your seniority and leapfrogged over people. (That is why the Javits decision on our seniority had to happen because the company could not or did not kept accurate records on who upgraded or downgraded.) That is why the sCO people kept their original Company Time as when you went into the "upgraded" classification. And rightfully or unrightfully caused conflict with the sUA people at that time. Now, when the contract was ratified, those who wanted to upgrade had to go to the bottom of the list. IMHO, they should have kept the "top out upgrade" as a sort of incentive for junior people who are ready and have the skill to upgrade. But that was lost in the new contract. If you make a lateral move to either Stores or the Aircraft Move Team, you fall to the bottom of their lists. We also have people with higher Company Time on the ramp (usually they came over from Chelsea - which is considered an upgrade) and have more vacation weeks, and higher Sen /Jun for furlough purposes, but their Classification Time is the first day they hit the ramp. So people will go over the lists, and people's time are different. And of course you have to account for lost seniority due to other circumstances. I only know most of this mess because people ask me questions about this, and who is affected. IMHO, I don't think it will be too bad for our workgroup. I am hoping for the best in all of this.

If you make a move (which I know a bunch of people did) to either the AMT or Facility or GSE, you have to follow the IBT contract which places you to the bottom of their lists. You get to keep your Company time for the purposes of vacation and boarding priority, but I'm not sure about the furlough process since it is not considered a lateral move within your Union. But I'm pretty sure your company time would take account in a furlough situation like we are having now. So I'm not sure about that 25 year man with that amount of Company Time who only has 2 or 3 years on the job in the new classification / work position, will keep his job over a 10 year MX who is above him on the seniority list. All I know the Company Time is very important especially in this situation we are in now.

I don't know how the TWU does things, but this is how the IAM does it.

 

[AMFAinMIAMI]

No, not that way at all.
We bid by mechanic seniority (category seniority).
Company time is used for Vac bids.
So a 30 year employee that became a mechanic at 15 years will carry 15 years for bidding purposes and 30 years for bidding vac time off.
In your example above, the 25yr ramp guy will start with day 1 seniority as a mechanic and bid as such.
The other advantage he would have is his company seniority would be used for these company packages being offered for VSP and long term leaves.

SWAMT;

You missed the point all together OCC & classification and mechanic time are ALL THE SAME THING.

Different unions or company termanology. Company time is for vacation as well here at AA.

I asked a question about a 25 yr guy never said it was that way, you are the one who said you don't agree with OCC or Classification time. Come to find out by your comment here the way its done at SWA is by OCC/class/mech. time

 

[AMFAinMIAMI]

You need to go look at the seniority list...cc time is different from mechanic time..

1986Mechanic where did I even mention CC, with the latest ruling on how CC seniority works it is NOW different than the way it way with the TWU. If a Sr. guy takes a CC slot now he starts out with no time and is at the bottom of the list since the IAM way is the ruling factor per the arbitrator. SOOOOO

I don't need to look at the book.

 

[AMFAinMIAMI]

I know. We have that problem as well, when we are short of leads, and no one will upgrade. Why would you give that up when you are already topped out.

In my hub, we had to junior man leads to fill open slots. (They had to be trained and watched over). The IAM is big on Classification Time. In my instance, before we merged and became unionized, we kept our original Company Time and even if you upgraded to Lead or moved to the Move Team, you kept your seniority and leapfrogged over people. (That is why the Javits decision on our seniority had to happen because the company could not or did not kept accurate records on who upgraded or downgraded.) That is why the sCO people kept their original Company Time as when you went into the "upgraded" classification. And rightfully or unrightfully caused conflict with the sUA people at that time. Now, when the contract was ratified, those who wanted to upgrade had to go to the bottom of the list. IMHO, they should have kept the "top out upgrade" as a sort of incentive for junior people who are ready and have the skill to upgrade. But that was lost in the new contract. If you make a lateral move to either Stores or the Aircraft Move Team, you fall to the bottom of their lists. We also have people with higher Company Time on the ramp (usually they came over from Chelsea - which is considered an upgrade) and have more vacation weeks, and higher Sen /Jun for furlough purposes, but their Classification Time is the first day they hit the ramp. So people will go over the lists, and people's time are different. And of course you have to account for lost seniority due to other circumstances. I only know most of this mess because people ask me questions about this, and who is affected. IMHO, I don't think it will be too bad for our workgroup. I am hoping for the best in all of this.

If you make a move (which I know a bunch of people did) to either the AMT or Facility or GSE, you have to follow the IBT contract which places you to the bottom of their lists. You get to keep your Company time for the purposes of vacation and boarding priority, but I'm not sure about the furlough process since it is not considered a lateral move within your Union. But I'm pretty sure your company time would take account in a furlough situation like we are having now. So I'm not sure about that 25 year man with that amount of Company Time who only has 2 or 3 years on the job in the new classification / work position, will keep his job over a 10 year MX who is above him on the seniority list. All I know the Company Time is very important especially in this situation we are in now.

I don't know how the TWU does things, but this is how the IAM does it.

T5Towbar;

Depending on which contract is in place at what ever company the rule is until the contract with any clause is amended the verbiage in the old contract remains the same. The IAM & IBT have one list where here at AA we had Tile groups 1, 2, 3, 4, and so on. if you had time in any you could bump or lateral back to the other. How each union interprets the language at the time of layoff along with the company. You must also remember that the language with in the ASSociation and each title group also varies as well. what happen in fleet doesn't happen in Maintenance in all cases.

Here at AA they are changing and altering the language on a daily basis since they are finding out that they did not due their job when they were negotiating the current contract due to the infighting of who was going to win IAM or TWU.

Just goes to show the M&R members of AA that we need to get the required number of cards signed and file with the NMB to give these two Failed industrial Unions the BOOT.

 

[swamt]

SWAMT;

You missed the point all together OCC & classification and mechanic time are ALL THE SAME THING.

Different unions or company termanology. Company time is for vacation as well here at AA.

I asked a question about a 25 yr guy never said it was that way, you are the one who said you don't agree with OCC or Classification time. Come to find out by your comment here the way its done at SWA is by OCC/class/mech. time

I have been told that the IAM way and TWU seniority for leads (CC) inspectors are different than at other (like ours) unions. So I am under the impression that a 20 year mech bids lead or inspector and is awarded, he then starts his first year as a lead or inspector. One year later, he now bids on future lead and/or inspector positions with his 1 yr lead/insp. seniority\ even though he has 21 years as a mech.
Here, with same scenario, that same 21 year employee will bid on future lead/insp. bids with his 21 years seniority, not the one year seniority after his first year in the new position. And that is what I mean by carrying your seniority with you into the leads and inspectors work groups.
Again, it was different before the merger, just not sure how it is done now with merger done and which way they went with the leads, CC, and inspector seniority issues.

 

[AMFAinMIAMI]

I have been told that the IAM way and TWU seniority for leads (CC) inspectors are different than at other (like ours) unions. So I am under the impression that a 20 year mech bids lead or inspector and is awarded, he then starts his first year as a lead or inspector. One year later, he now bids on future lead and/or inspector positions with his 1 yr lead/insp. seniority\ even though he has 21 years as a mech.
Here, with same scenario, that same 21 year employee will bid on future lead/insp. bids with his 21 years seniority, not the one year seniority after his first year in the new position. And that is what I mean by carrying your seniority with you into the leads and inspectors work groups.
Again, it was different before the merger, just not sure how it is done now with merger done and which way they went with the leads, CC, and inspector seniority issues.

SWAMT;

Does it really matter how we do it, It's not the way SWA does it. It may not be the IBT does it at UAL, so what.. Until the members of AA in M&R wake up and do something to rid AA of this STUPID ASSociation what ever happens here the M&R guys deserve what ever punishment the ASSociation dishes out. For the most part a lot of the guys will bend over and say give it to me AGAIN because they do not know any better the TWU never taught them how to be Union members.

 

[swamt]

SWAMT;

Does it really matter how we do it, It's not the way SWA does it. It may not be the IBT does it at UAL, so what.. Until the members of AA in M&R wake up and do something to rid AA of this STUPID ASSociation what ever happens here the M&R guys deserve what ever punishment the ASSociation dishes out. For the most part a lot of the guys will bend over and say give it to me AGAIN because they do not know any better the TWU never taught them how to be Union members.

It does matter a bit. Just another reason to mark WHY the asso. should go, so yes it does matter. It matters how the asso. does everything when comparing representation. What does matter even more is how it is laid out in the contract. Because that is how is should be followed, not necessarily who is representing. But, with this current asso and two industrial unions you guys will never be able to change that language.

 

[swamt]

I guess the rumors are true. Although this is Envoy, and not AA. Still not good for the aviation industry.
Hope the employees can bid to another location, but I suspect layoffs are in the future.
Anyone know how large these bases were? Approx. how many employees are involved??

https://www.yahoo.com/news/american-airlines-envoy-close-york-181459286.html

 

[jimntx]

I guess the rumors are true. Although this is Envoy, and not AA. Still not good for the aviation industry.
Hope the employees can bid to another location, but I suspect layoffs are in the future.
Anyone know how large these bases were? Approx. how many employees are involved??

https://www.yahoo.com/news/american-airlines-envoy-close-york-181459286.html

If they are closing JFK and LGA bases, how can there not be furloughs/layoffs, whatever you want to call them unless there was a pretty bad shortage of AMTs, etc at other Envoy bases? How many employees are assigned to those bases? Something's gotta give at some point. '
(Swamt, I just noticed that your post I quoted asked the same question I did--how many people are in those bases.) Oops!

09/13/20: Addendum to yesterday's post. Another possibility would be that instead of furloughing those JFK and LGA employees, the company is planning to greatly increase American Eagle flying from/to domestic destinations that are not currently served so increase in support roles (AMTs, gate agents, etc) would be needed and company does not plan to outsource the technical positions as they have been doing (I think) for some time. I know that gate/ticket agent has been an outsourced position at American for some time.

 

[swamt]

If they are closing JFK and LGA bases, how can there not be furloughs/layoffs, whatever you want to call them unless there was a pretty bad shortage of AMTs, etc at other Envoy bases? How many employees are assigned to those bases? Something's gotta give at some point. '
(Swamt, I just noticed that your post I quoted asked the same question I did--how many people are in those bases.) Oops!

09/13/20: Addendum to yesterday's post. Another possibility would be that instead of furloughing those JFK and LGA employees, the company is planning to greatly increase American Eagle flying from/to domestic destinations that are not currently served so increase in support roles (AMTs, gate agents, etc) would be needed and company does not plan to outsource the technical positions as they have been doing (I think) for some time. I know that gate/ticket agent has been an outsourced position at American for some time.

We are on the same page on this. I expect to hear of some job cuts coming soon unless they allow employees to filter into other cities and jobs somewhere else, but don't expect that at all.

 

[1986Mekanic]

We should all say a prayer for those Souls whose lives will be disrupted;
God, we pray for all those who have suddenly lost employment. There are many. We ask you to first give them peace and a settled confidence. Their natural response is to shock and then fear, and to begin questioning their abilities, the past accomplishments and their future prospects. Give them your encouragement today, and do so through surprising ways, both directly from your Spirit and through other people who come across their path. Build them up, as this situation has torn them down. Remind them of past victories, and awaken new dreams for their future. Give them – today – divine appointments with people who may be key in opening a new future for them. Give them hope; lighten their step; lift the anxiety from their body; give them sleep and an unexpected joy. God, you intend us to have a purposeful life. You give us work assignments to accomplish because you designed us to help you create and sustain your creation. We are not made for idleness or sloth. We need meaningful work. So for all those who have lost a job, today bring them one step closer to a new direction. Show them any areas in their own character that need to change in order for their destiny to be realized. Then give them the wisdom and power to make those changes, by your Spirit. Today is a new day with new possibilities. Let nothing stand in the way of your purposes in the lives of those who, without your assistance, cannot find their next course. We pray this in Jesus name Amen

 

[robbedagain]

Good luck to all affected

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

We should all say a prayer for those Souls whose lives will be disrupted;
God, we pray for all those who have suddenly lost employment. There are many. We ask you to first give them peace and a settled confidence. Their natural response is to shock and then fear, and to begin questioning their abilities, the past accomplishments and their future prospects. Give them your encouragement today, and do so through surprising ways, both directly from your Spirit and through other people who come across their path. Build them up, as this situation has torn them down. Remind them of past victories, and awaken new dreams for their future. Give them – today – divine appointments with people who may be key in opening a new future for them. Give them hope; lighten their step; lift the anxiety from their body; give them sleep and an unexpected joy. God, you intend us to have a purposeful life. You give us work assignments to accomplish because you designed us to help you create and sustain your creation. We are not made for idleness or sloth. We need meaningful work. So for all those who have lost a job, today bring them one step closer to a new direction. Show them any areas in their own character that need to change in order for their destiny to be realized. Then give them the wisdom and power to make those changes, by your Spirit. Today is a new day with new possibilities. Let nothing stand in the way of your purposes in the lives of those who, without your assistance, cannot find their next course. We pray this in Jesus name Amen

You are going to make a post like that after posting this?

http://www.airlineforums.com/threads/extension-of-cares-act-less-likely.63178/page-3

The politic-ism and the religious aspect of an airline BB has been reported to the moderator. He doesn't want to do anything about it so there you have it. Sure , its your God given right to discuss religion when and where you want but... there was a time and place for it, at when people "thought" about the context of the conversation.. Ones religious and political views were something of a private nature, that folks kept those views to themselves for the most part..

With regards to this board,what was once a decent source of information and now a partisan bickering hole with our Lord Jesus Christ mixed in... Kind of the way of the whole country just now isn't it?

Amen and may God be with you!!!

Hypocrite much?

 

[D7571987]

Oct 1 at UAL 2000 (many different job titles in tech ops) out of the 7600 in tech ops will be on the street unless the government steps in again. SFO maint was reduced by over a thousand. Takes 1989 seniority now to hold SFO.