AMFA National Officers to Visit Miami

[Bob Owens]

AMFA isn't a threat to me. If they get in I agree, I will get a big pay raise. I have more than enough seniority to stay on while about 5,000 or more lose their jobs. I have said many times that I am not okay with that. Bob, Ken, you, and many others are apparently okay with letting fellow union brothers that pay dues, just like Bob's JFK buddies, pay for your pay raise through having their jobs outsourced.

Just tell the truth. AMFA has a jobs for pay mentality, a LOT of jobs for a pay raise for a few. Either way you look at it, AMFA has provided higher pay for far less people. There is no other way to slice it. The facts speak for themselves. They had 18,000 members and now 2,700 in less than ten years. Yes we took concessions in 2003 but we would have had $38 two years ago if we had said yes in 2010 and the base would have been making $34 but for Bob and his vote no coalition that wasn't good enough. His group, and the AMFA group, want more and they are willing to give up as many jobs in order to claim the top pay trophy. The problem is they don't care that only a few will be raising that trophy and there is no participation trophy for the thousands that lose their jobs. The ones who get sacrificed for the craft in their view are expendable.

More lies.

I've never said that we should give away jobs to get a raise, I've said that we should get paid what our peers get paid. The company proposed different rates for the line but Tulsa told the company that was unacceptable. Tulsa's reps made the decision that to allow the line to get paid more than Tulsa OH was unacceptable, and they also would not fight to keep us all among our peers. They opted to pull down everyone because they did not want to risk fighting, unlike the Pilots. Their reps decided that they would accept the concessions but only if they could force the Line guys to accept them as well. The Line reps were never given the opportunity to present their proposals to the company. It was railroaded through and Ream refused to meet with the Line maint reps, simply turned his back and walked away. You voted in favor of that.

We gave the company the ability to outsource as much as they want. You say we limited them to 35%. Who came up with the "35% of maintenance spend" number? The company. Why did they pick that number? Because they knew that capacity was limited and nobody wanted to do their MD-80s anyway. They term sheet was actually more restrictive at 40% of the work than what we settled on, 35% of the spend. Even if it was just labor spend 40% of work would be less than 35% of spend because in theory they would be paying less for the labor overseas, and there is nothing in our language limiting them from sending work where ever they want. By the time the new aircraft start seeing OH on the new aircraft this contract will be amendable, in the meantime between now and then they plan to eliminate at least 4000 jobs from when they filed, if they want, if the pilots agree to outsource a lot of domestic flying, there is nothing stopping AA from eliminating all of OH. Cite your language and what you think it means, then cite the percentage of arbitration cases over language where they rule in favor of the Union. You voted in favor of that.

You come here and spin your lies but the facts are what they are. We have no system protection, the company can lay off any worker. They can outsource their OH to anyplace in the world, yet when they extracted concessions they used the higher US rates to minimize the credit that outsourcing work would generate. With the concessions we gave them they essentially get the labor of around 1800 mechanics for free, plus if they deceide they can maximze saving even more by sending work overseas, and we would not get credit for that. You voted in favor of that.



So in the end what will we have accomplished? Other than giving AA the cheapest mechanics labor in the industry? If AA decides to outsource all of OH there is nothing, other than Overspeeds interpretation of what the language says, not an arbitrators, stopping them. You voted in favor of that.

We have the worst deal in the industry. The lowest wage, the fewest and lowest paid holidays, the least amount of vacation, the least amount of sick time and the worst pension. Despite your claim that all these concessions were needed to save jobs some of those concessions cost jobs, such as less vacation time and fewer holidays, Those concessions allow the company to run their operations with fewer mechanics not more. you voted in favor of that.

The fact is that Overspeed and his buddies screwed us all and they try and spin the balme to those of us who acted like Union memn and women are supposed to act-say NO to concessions. They prevented us from asking to be released immediately after we rejected the 2010 deal which is what Unions normally do. In 1997 when the APA rejected their TA they were released, in 1993 when the APFA rejected their TA they were released, in 2011 when the pilots at Spirit rejected their TA they were released, we rejected the TA and even after two years of very little progress we still had not asked to be released. Whose fault was that OS? I had made the motion several times. Tulsa and Title II (mostly from Fleet Service locals) blocked it. Tulsa finally agreed to ask to be released, on Nov 30 2011, the company filed BK the day before. What did they know? Who told them to pick that day? If we had asked the NMB back in 2010 they would have run out of options, they would have had to release us, would we have been allowed to strike? Probably not, most likely would have been put into a PEB but our deal would have been based upon what was prevelent in the industry and not the worst of everything.
You voted in favor of that.

You voted in favor of everything thats wrong with this contract, yet in your twisted logic its the fault of those who voted against it. Spin Spin Spin,Overspin.

 

[AMFAinMIAMI]

AMFA National Officers come to Miami​

Aircraft Maintenance​

Automotive​

Facilities​

Wednesday November 14[sup]th[/sup], 2012​

10am until 6pm​

Informational Meeting will be held on South side of American Airlines Parking structure​

In the courtyard behind MDPD Building.​

 

[swamt]

Great post Bob. OS also forgot to mention 1983, 1993 as well as the current year and concessions going on now. Not to forget the outsourcing added to all the job losses. His "job losses" that he claims AMFA lost were not in fact job losses. They are union members excersising their rights to elect a new union to represent them. They all kept their jobs but simply changed unions. Now, mr. Overspeed; pls explain the thousands upon thousands of "job losses" that your wonderfull TWU union has "agreed to" as well as all the, not only outsourcing, but international outsourcing... Pls explain. This is exactly what you claim AMFA allowed at SWA, which has all been prooven wrong, EVRY SINGLE BIT OF IT!!! If the TWU would have stood their ground (instead of caving to the company as they ALWAYS do, hence "company union" status) then the mechanics would be in contract negos just like the pilots are right now. Keep spinnin all you want OS, the folks out here are very aware of the differences of the unions we discuss here. You guys will be much better once AMFA wins the election...

 

[WNMECH]

You guys will be much better once AMFA wins the election...

They will still be stuck with the TWU concession contract, job losses and poor wages that the TWU got for them.
I believe it is for about 6 years of that crap.

While they will be able to control their future, they cannot change the past.

 

[1AA]

They will still be stuck with the TWU concession contract, job losses and poor wages that the TWU got for them.
I believe it is for about 6 years of that crap.

While they will be able to control their future, they cannot change the past.

TRUE but with AMFA we have accountability from the International. They are and will be held accountable for their actions or out they go. Just like the pilots and flight attendants unions here at AA. ACCOUNTABILITY, that is the driving force of a union that is in touch with its members.

 

[AMFAinMIAMI]

AMFA isn't a threat to me. If they get in I agree, I will get a big pay raise. I have more than enough seniority to stay on while about 5,000 or more lose their jobs. I have said many times that I am not okay with that. .

Just tell the truth. AMFA has a jobs for pay mentality. a LOT of jobs for a pay raise for a few. Either way you look at it, AMFA has provided higher pay for far less people. There is no other way to slice it. The facts speak for themselves. They had 18,000 members and now 2,700 in less than ten years. Yes we took concessions in 2003.

Overspeed

You have all this time with AA and are happy to take the money if we get AMFA on the property. Just like back in 2001 you got $$$ due to the AMFA guys at NWA.

AMFA did not loose all members because they wanted to remove AMFA NWA went on strike and then out of Business. "YES" UAL voted them out but from what I understand that the IBT at UAL is not doing so well and the IAM and AMFA are being considered again. IBT has lied and failed to deliver. Just another industrial union just after dues. The AMFA National guys have come to a few stations here at AA have you ever talked with them attended one of the meeting? ( BE HONEST )

The concessions of 2003 with out a snap back was a slap in the face again by the twu. Don V. said and I quote "we did not feel it was in the best interest of the company to add that due to the economic times".. I asked him who HE works for US or the company? Then he made some off the wall remark about how I was slingig doom and gloom. Thats the TWU intl. for you..

Getting laid off is just part of the industry, having to change jobs over and over is as well. But having to come back or start over at a lower rate of pay is NOT acceptable to me or anyone else. Because at the end we all have nothing to show for all the yrs spent in this industry. Pensions frozen or lost or not even gotten since yrs ago you needed 10yrs to be vested. (pre jan 1,1989) I am not saying its good to pay others while members hit the streets but the culture here at AA will be when that happens, is that the remaining will work all the O/T they can get. That's been taught here by the TWU, show them they need bodies with working the O/T. Company based Union.

I GOT MINE the favorite saying here at AA. If your happy with the TWU thats ok.

For those of us who want to be paid and have more at the end we are just attempting to rid AA of the concessionary TWU and put more $$$$ in your pocket. And with that maybe bring back the members laid off at a rate of pay worth coming back too.

IF Flights look good come on Down to Miami, get a little sun and chat with the AMFA guys. Tell them your thoughts and ask you questions directly.

 

[1AA]

IF Flights look good come on Down to Miami, get a little sun and chat with the AMFA guys. Tell them your thoughts and ask you questions directly.

Now that is humorous. He would rather post here and bash than go face to face and get the truth. He and every AMFA basher knows it. Hit and Run. The TWU way.

 

[WNMECH]

TRUE but with AMFA we have accountability from the International. They are and will be held accountable for their actions or out they go. Just like the pilots and flight attendants unions here at AA. ACCOUNTABILITY, that is the driving force of a union that is in touch with its members.

I just wanted to make the point that you are still stuck with a #### sandwich for 6 years.

I believe that when AMFA went into UAL, some people had unrealistic expectations and wanted instant change.

They were still stuck with their own bankruptcy #### sandwich. With all their infighting, they did not allow time for AMFA to get strong there and work the way we enjoy AMFA freedom here at SWA.
If you vote them in, you got to put in the hard work, and give it time to get back the benefits.

 

[AMFAinMIAMI]

I just wanted to make the point that you are still stuck with a #### sandwich for 6 years.

I believe that when AMFA went into UAL, some people had unrealistic expectations and wanted instant change.

They were still stuck with their own bankruptcy #### sandwich. With all their infighting, they did not allow time for AMFA to get strong there and work the way we enjoy AMFA freedom here at SWA.
If you vote them in, you got to put in the hard work, and give it time to get back the benefits.

I am hoping that the AMT's and automotive and facilities mechanics realize that the culture set in place here at AA by the TWU needs to change and that we all will need to work together to change the way AA looks as us and how we treat one another.

That is why it is important for guys like your self and others from represented carriers to speak up and correct the lies being spread about how AMFA operates. I know that AMFA is not perfect, no union is. Its how the members want it to be or accept it whether it works or fails.

Join us in Miami and help rid AA of the TWU..

 

[WNMECH]

I know that AMFA is not perfect, no union is. Its how the members want it to be or accept it whether it works or fails.

Exactly.
But it is a great system for those who are ready to govern themselves.
And as I have said before, AA mechanics will end up filling most leadership positions in AMFA because of their voting numbers.
They will be a large part of leading AMFA into the future if they want to join us.

Do you know another group of union leaders that would try to organize a group, knowing they would lose their cozy national jobs to them?

 

[AMFAinMIAMI]

AMFA National Informational​

Meeting in Miami​

I would like to thank the National Officers of AMFA and the others who came to Miami
volunteering their time to speak to over 100 from A/C maintenance, Automotive, and
Facilities personnel. Also a Thanks You to all here in Miami who made it Happen.

AMFA National provided food and beverages for all. There was also a drawing in which Tools were distributed.

Many who came also purchased AMFA shirts.

Most were satisfied with the information and AMFA cards were signed by those who had not signed before.

Miami is close to 90% AMFA in A/C Maintenance.

Now it's up to the rest of the system to follow and sign cards so that we can remove the TWU.

 

[unionguy1]

AMFA National Informational​

Meeting in Miami​

I would like to thank the National Officers of AMFA and the others who came to Miami
volunteering their time to speak to over 100 from A/C maintenance, Automotive, and
Facilities personnel. Also a Thanks You to all here in Miami who made it Happen.

AMFA National provided food and beverages for all. There was also a drawing in which Tools were distributed.

Many who came also purchased AMFA shirts.

Most were satisfied with the information and AMFA cards were signed by those who had not signed before.

Miami is close to 90% AMFA in A/C Maintenance.

Now it's up to the rest of the system to follow and sign cards so that we can remove the TWU.

Well said and good job. 90% in MIA. Hope the other stations follow your example.

 

[Anomaly]

Overspeed

You have all this time with AA and are happy to take the money if we get AMFA on the property. Just like back in 2001 you got $$$ due to the AMFA guys at NWA.

AMFA did not loose all members because they wanted to remove AMFA NWA went on strike and then out of Business. "YES" UAL voted them out but from what I understand that the IBT at UAL is not doing so well and the IAM and AMFA are being considered again. IBT has lied and failed to deliver. Just another industrial union just after dues. The AMFA National guys have come to a few stations here at AA have you ever talked with them attended one of the meeting? ( BE HONEST )

The concessions of 2003 with out a snap back was a slap in the face again by the twu. Don V. said and I quote "we did not feel it was in the best interest of the company to add that due to the economic times".. I asked him who HE works for US or the company? Then he made some off the wall remark about how I was slingig doom and gloom. Thats the TWU intl. for you..

Getting laid off is just part of the industry, having to change jobs over and over is as well. But having to come back or start over at a lower rate of pay is NOT acceptable to me or anyone else. Because at the end we all have nothing to show for all the yrs spent in this industry. Pensions frozen or lost or not even gotten since yrs ago you needed 10yrs to be vested. (pre jan 1,1989) I am not saying its good to pay others while members hit the streets but the culture here at AA will be when that happens, is that the remaining will work all the O/T they can get. That's been taught here by the TWU, show them they need bodies with working the O/T. Company based Union.

I GOT MINE the favorite saying here at AA. If your happy with the TWU thats ok.

For those of us who want to be paid and have more at the end we are just attempting to rid AA of the concessionary TWU and put more $$$$ in your pocket. And with that maybe bring back the members laid off at a rate of pay worth coming back too.

IF Flights look good come on Down to Miami, get a little sun and chat with the AMFA guys. Tell them your thoughts and ask you questions directly.

AMFAinMIAMI, we can all blame your babble for drawing me back in to this. WHERE DO YOU COME UP WITH THIS CRAZY TALK?

The IBT at UAL is on no danger at all. The Pilots are finally moving forward on their contract at UAL and are doing so almost a YEAR AFTER the mechanics. For years we have been slave to the leftover crumbs of negotiations after they have finished, but the Teamsters changed the order of things. The mechanics were FIRST in negotiating an agreement and we have enjoyed our pay and benefits increase for almost a year. Negotiations for our second contract are getting underway and it is very likely the IBT will have successfully negotiated TWO contracts before the IAM even completes one. We will never go back to the IAM.

The only evidence of a return to either the IAM or AMFA is the comments on this site. Their is NO ongoing or concerted effort to campaign for either group on the property. We keep hearing (again, only on this site) that the groups are waiting for the end of the second negotiations, but after that it will be too late and we all know this. Just like you, our membership suffers apathy towards union participation. There was a small voice between the first and second tentative agreement but that quickly died after the increase in pay was realized. The IBT is doing just fine at UAL

Your second point has to do with the "I GOT MINE" attitude. Thank you for describing the average AMFA member. That could be their official slogan. You write about not wanting to start over after being laid off or changing to another airline, but do you think the average AMFA member will simply allow you to assimilate into their seniority system? It did not work out so well for the Air Tran mechanics. The WN AMFA members made sure to promote the I GOT MINE attitude.

Overspeed is correct in referencing the AMFA tendency to trade jobs for pay increases, but in all honesty the reduction from 18,000 to 2,500 had little to do with it. Irresponsibility to the membership and realization of weaknesses caused most of us to gratefully leave the association. Their is a slight chance AA mechanics will live to realize first hand the failures of AMFA, but for your sake, I hope not. American Airlines is not Southwest or Alaska. Amfa has NEVER been successful at an airline who is not leading the nation in profitability. Like it or not, this IS a simple fact. You think life at AA could not get worse? Join AMFA and find out just how deep the bottom can be.

 

[AMFAinMIAMI]

AMFAinMIAMI, we can all blame your babble for drawing me back in to this. WHERE DO YOU COME UP WITH THIS CRAZY TALK?

The IBT at UAL is on no danger at all. The Pilots are finally moving forward on their contract at UAL and are doing so almost a YEAR AFTER the mechanics. For years we have been slave to the leftover crumbs of negotiations after they have finished, but the Teamsters changed the order of things. The mechanics were FIRST in negotiating an agreement and we have enjoyed our pay and benefits increase for almost a year. Negotiations for our second contract are getting underway and it is very likely the IBT will have successfully negotiated TWO contracts before the IAM even completes one. We will never go back to the IAM.

The only evidence of a return to either the IAM or AMFA is the comments on this site. Their is NO ongoing or concerted effort to campaign for either group on the property. We keep hearing (again, only on this site) that the groups are waiting for the end of the second negotiations, but after that it will be too late and we all know this. Just like you, our membership suffers apathy towards union participation. There was a small voice between the first and second tentative agreement but that quickly died after the increase in pay was realized. The IBT is doing just fine at UAL

Your second point has to do with the "I GOT MINE" attitude. Thank you for describing the average AMFA member. That could be their official slogan. You write about not wanting to start over after being laid off or changing to another airline, but do you think the average AMFA member will simply allow you to assimilate into their seniority system? It did not work out so well for the Air Tran mechanics. The WN AMFA members made sure to promote the I GOT MINE attitude.

Overspeed is correct in referencing the AMFA tendency to trade jobs for pay increases, but in all honesty the reduction from 18,000 to 2,500 had little to do with it. Irresponsibility to the membership and realization of weaknesses caused most of us to gratefully leave the association. Their is a slight chance AA mechanics will live to realize first hand the failures of AMFA, but for your sake, I hope not. American Airlines is not Southwest or Alaska. Amfa has NEVER been successful at an airline who is not leading the nation in profitability. Like it or not, this IS a simple fact. You think life at AA could not get worse? Join AMFA and find out just how deep the bottom can be.

Anomoly

From the United guys I have chatted with, the reason there is not any real drive for either IAM or Amfa is they are waiting for the IBT to intergrate CAL and Ual. Being that they were both IBT tell us all why is it taking so long. Why haven't you welcomed your IBT brothers into the fold? Shouldn't it be easy, or have the almighty Teamsters lied and cant get the lies they told worked out so that the CAl guys and the UAL guys will be both happy. Or have they told you that they are busy with contract and will get back to it tell us all whats really going on.

As far as Going to AMFA that is my plan as well many others here at AA.
The TWU is the bottom," In My opinion "

Tell us all here as well what are the IBT leaders telling the CAL mechanics about their pension are they going to take it so all at UAL will be without a pension? UAL took yours so Now your going to let the IBT take theirs as well. They are hiring at CAL yet there are mechanics laid off at UAL hows that working with the UAL guys and whats the IBT telling you about that?

EXPLAIN that...

 

[Anomaly]

Anomoly

From the United guys I have chatted with, the reason there is not any real drive for either IAM or Amfa is they are waiting for the IBT to intergrate CAL and Ual. Being that they were both IBT tell us all why is it taking so long. Why haven't you welcomed your IBT brothers into the fold? Shouldn't it be easy, or have the almighty Teamsters lied and cant get the lies they told worked out so that the CAl guys and the UAL guys will be both happy. Or have they told you that they are busy with contract and will get back to it tell us all whats really going on.

As far as Going to AMFA that is my plan as well many others here at AA.
The TWU is the bottom," In My opinion "

Tell us all here as well what are the IBT leaders telling the CAL mechanics about their pension are they going to take it so all at UAL will be without a pension? UAL took yours so Now your going to let the IBT take theirs as well. They are hiring at CAL yet there are mechanics laid off at UAL hows that working with the UAL guys and whats the IBT telling you about that?

EXPLAIN that...

Seriously, do you really just make this stuff up as you go along? AMFA is waiting for CO and UA to integrate? Are you kidding me? If they wait until that happens they will have no chance at all (not that they do now). Integration means the completion of the contract and essentially a new airline with one contract. Once this happens good luck getting anyone to volunteer to get back in to an election campaign cycle. We will all be happy when this is over. You will have your unhappy mechanics who I am sure will do what they can to keep the fires stoked fr changing unions again, but they have never left and seldom get attention.

We do welcome our CO IBT brothers, but they are governed according to their contract, and we by ours. The company loves your attitude of just "bring them all in", but the costs to the company are more involved by having two separate agreements (three if you add Air Mic). We will welcome them and they will welcome us when the company gives us ONE agreement. Until then, we work within our crew, and they with theirs.

Will both groups be happy? Probably not. Nobody on the UA or CO Board of Directors bothered to ask any of us mechanics if we approved the merger. There are many CO mechanics at the most junior stations who are worried about their new placement on the seniority system. Unlike AMFA, the IBT is pushing for a simple Date of Hire seniority system which is the most popular resolution. It is not, unfortunately, the unanimous choice.

Also unfortunate, in my opinion, is that the IBT has decided to waste time and listen to the ideas and concerns of the few and less senior stations. The IBT said it would be Date of Hire, but when a few small Locals pushed back, they listened to these guys and considered the requests of different seniority integration ideas. In the end, date of hire will win out and I wish the IBT would have just came out on day one and stuck to that. This is again my opinion only, and I am sure not what the junior mechanics in Houston, Cleavland or Orlando will want to hear that. They want credit or something that would give them seniority over 20+ year UAL mechanics. Too bad. This is not WN or AMFA. Date of hire is fair!! Listening to the members is what has been adding time to the merger of the seniority lists. I am not saying that I do not want all members to be heard, just in this case it does little to change the outcome, and plenty to wast time. My peeve maybe, but every single UA mechanic I know agrees with date of hire, and almost half of the CO mechanics do as well according to the survey.

Integrating the agreements is not a function left up to the IBT alone. It involves negotiating with the company and even that is now subject to the schedule of the NMB. Since we entered in to Mediation, we no longer have the luxury of setting up our own meeting schedule.

You ask what is going to happen with the CAL pensions? To answer your question however, no; the IBT leaders are NOT telling CAL they will sacrifice their pensions. I guess we will both have to wait for the conclusion of negotiations to see how this turns out.

As far as CO hiring new mechanics? In the mechanics eyes, both sides, we do not really care who's name is on the tail. We are two separate companies and until the company advances our salaries, and increases benefits on both sides, that is how we will act. Continental is hiring off the street, United is not. I am not taking a cut in pay to start over at CO, would you?