AMR CEO's compensation rises 11 percent to $5.2M

[Birdman]

They have never put forth any information proving that it costs more to do it in house than it would to outsource it. Remember just because AAR may be paying their guys $26/hr that doesnt mean when AA brings their planes to them (another cost) that that is what AAR charges AA for that labor.

How many times on this forum has it been said that AA's costs, including maintenance, are the highest in the industry? It must be true.

 

[Bob Owens]

And maybe FWAAA is right -- you have no choice but to focus on the minutae like this and whether or not airplanes should have been stuffed into a hangar during a hail storm

Where did I post that? There you go again claiming that I said something so you can refute it in your post because you cant seem to refute what I did post.

Keep digging.

 

[Frank Szabo]

Where did I post that? There you go again claiming that I said something so you can refute it in your post because you cant seem to refute what I did post.

Keep digging.

Bob, quit screwing with the management - sink the boat - it's time.

 

[FWAAA]

Bob, quit screwing with the management - sink the boat - it's time.

Bob and all the rest of the negotiators belonging to the bus drivers' union have been completely unable to convince the company to pay you guys more, so why not argue with people on the internet during the Indy 500?

 

[strikeforce]

It's not my call. As I've told you before I'm a witness who gets to add an opinion.

I dont maintain that at this time that we should get the same as UPS, I asked why we shouldnt? I recognize that we do have to compete with other passenger airlines and we should all set parity with UPS as our objective but we arent going to get there in one negotiations cycle. Why should passenger airlines get a discount on A&P labor? I do think we should get at least the same as Southwest. OH is supposedly the reason why we cant get Southwest wages but the company never offered to give us that in exchange for outsourcing.
Long before I got there it was determined that the committee would not bring up Southwest, UPS or anybody that didnt go through BK and made a lot more than us. At first I was told that we didnt want to compare because Southwest farms out all their OH, then when we brought up that they dont farm it all out and that all the ones we were still comparing ourselves to also farmed out much of their OH there was a change of heart. I sat there in our meeting at JFK during the "Road Trip" where Gilboy told our members that we could have the Southwest contract but then we would have to have the same headcount per aircraft as southwest, which is rediculous since Southwest doesnt have widebodies or ETOPS.

The current table position is what we (the sub-committee)were given by the full committee.

Wrong, AA was given the option to slash all the heads they wanted to back in 2003 instead of the pay concessions, THEY SAID NO.

AA wants it both ways, they want the quality, cost savings and efficiency of doing it in house and they want to pay what 3p providers pay. .




Probably not, but in the end its people like you that accept the deal isnt it? But then again you choose to "resign and distance yourself" from making a commitment to try and challenge and change that and leave people like Gilboy in there as your voice.

No Bob, you are more than just an observer with an opinion. The full committe replaced the last team because they were incompetent, and brought back that POS T/A. Now, you are it, Bob!

The full committee decided not to mention WN & UPS because the TWU is about keeping dues paying members and not about enhancing the craft and class. Let's stop beating around the bush, Bob! You know it and everyone else on this forum knows it. Little & Co. will never agree to farm out jobs in exchange for higher wages and comparable benefits as UPS & WN. The TWU will continue to accept the status quo in exchange for newly created Airline Support Mechanics, SRP's, OSM's. Why can't you just admit it and why doesn't the TWU leadership just come out and tell us......that our wages will continue to stay stagnant in exchange for more non-licensed helpers, right?
This is AA's and TWU's collective answer to keep maintenance in-house? Isn't it Bob?

As far as, AA given an option in 2003 to reduce headcount in exchange for concessions.....the union leadership brought back that concessionary T/A to the membership and then the TWU came out in force and sold that POS to us with a TWU gun to our heads. Just like the last incompetent committee brought back the rejected T/A to the membership, right Bob? Don't blame me for getting T/A's shoved down my throat because incompetent people like Gilboy decide to bring back POS T/A's. It will be no different if YOU decide to bring back some POS agreement, Bob.

Bob, I resigned because I chose not associate myself with an organization that diminishes our profession. I obviously made the wrong decision back in 1999 by running for TWU office. The TWU is a disgrace to the AMT craft & class. The only thing I will commit to is backing other organizations that enhance the AMT profession. You obviously have the same beliefs as the TWU leadership, otherwise you would resign too.

Just to let you know.....I voted No in 2003, and for the rejected T/A, and I will continue to vote NO until my pay & benefits are fully restored!

 

[Tex-Mech]

No Bob, you are more than just an observer with an opinion. The full committe replaced the last team because they were incompetent, and brought back that POS T/A. Now, you are it, Bob!

Read article 47, he is just a witness to the signing of a contract belonging to the international. At the end of the day, it is the internationals call on the contract. 😉

 

[strikeforce]

Read article 47, he is just a witness to the signing of a contract belonging to the international. At the end of the day, it is the internationals call on the contract. 😉

Article 47 shows the witnesses to the signing, but ultimately it's the full negotiating committee that votes on whether a T/A is brought forward to the membership for a vote. At least that's the way it was before the last team was replaced. Evidently, we're not privy to how negotiations are set-up in the secret society because the TWU will not allow observers in negotiations.

The International has the authority to overrule the memberships decision to accept or reject. In 2003, Jim Little had the perfect opprotunity to reject the accepted concessionary deal after AA notified the SEC about the SERP, and he didn't.

 

[Tex-Mech]

Article 47 shows the witnesses to the signing, but ultimately it's the full negotiating committee that votes on whether a T/A is brought forward to the membership for a vote. At least that's the way it was before the last team was replaced. Evidently, we're not privy to how negotiations are set-up in the secret society because the TWU will not allow observers in negotiations.

The International has the authority to overrule the memberships decision to accept or reject. In 2003, Jim Little had the perfect opprotunity to reject the accepted concessionary deal after AA notified the SEC about the SERP, and he didn't.

I would add full committee based on their vote after backroom deals of promises for international jobs or other perks. 😉

I did find the negotiating policy on my locals website.
http://www.twu567.org/pdfs/library/internationalpolicy/NegPol.pdf

As far as the SERP, here is an article from back then that says they knew about it. It would make sense why they didn't reject the deal because what they knew would of come out in the lawsuit that would of been filed by AA. Of course the question is at what level of union leaders did they know, which leads back to our original discussion on who is really negotiating. I highly doubt that all local leaders would have been able to keep quiet on this one.

Bruce Hicks, a spokesman for American, then told The Wall Street Journal that union leaders had been informed of the benefits during negotiations but did not tell their members.

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/25/business/under-fire-for-perks-chief-quits-american-airlines.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm

 

[strikeforce]

I would add full committee based on their vote after backroom deals of promises for international jobs or other perks. 😉

I did find the negotiating policy on my locals website.
http://www.twu567.org/pdfs/library/internationalpolicy/NegPol.pdf

As far as the SERP, here is an article from back then that says they knew about it. It would make sense why they didn't reject the deal because what they knew would of come out in the lawsuit that would of been filed by AA. Of course the question is at what level of union leaders did they know, which leads back to our original discussion on who is really negotiating. I highly doubt that all local leaders would have been able to keep quiet on this one.



http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/25/business/under-fire-for-perks-chief-quits-american-airlines.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm

I don't recall, but wasn't Bob Owens president of 562 in 2003? What does he know about the SERP, if the article is correct? Matter of fact, I still have the Jim Little letter dated April 17, 2003 where Little tells the members about the SERP.

Something just doesn't smell right about the whole concessionary deal. This almost proves that the TWU and AA tag teamed against the membership in 2003. I can't prove nothing, but a little birdie tells me someone within the union got a boat load of money to help AA rape US. That's just my gut feeling!!!!

 

[Bob Owens]

No Bob, you are more than just an observer with an opinion. The full committe replaced the last team because they were incompetent, and brought back that POS T/A. Now, you are it, Bob!

Read your contract. Article 47.

The full committee decided not to mention WN & UPS because the TWU is about keeping dues paying members and not about enhancing the craft and class. Let's stop beating around the bush, Bob! You know it and everyone else on this forum knows it. Little & Co. will never agree to farm out jobs in exchange for higher wages and comparable benefits as UPS & WN. The TWU will continue to accept the status quo in exchange for newly created Airline Support Mechanics, SRP's, OSM's. Why can't you just admit it and why doesn't the TWU leadership just come out and tell us......that our wages will continue to stay stagnant in exchange for more non-licensed helpers, right?
This is AA's and TWU's collective answer to keep maintenance in-house? Isn't it Bob?

Well you seem to have all the answers you need already so there isnt much use convincing you otherwise but maybe you should consider this. The fact is that OH is the majority, now you want the union to convince those guys they should vote away their jobs so you can get $50/hr?

As far as, AA given an option in 2003 to reduce headcount in exchange for concessions.....the union leadership brought back that concessionary T/A to the membership and then the TWU came out in force and sold that POS to us with a TWU gun to our heads.

Maybe your Local did but ours didn't. We even took out an Ad in the Tulsa World giving our opinion on the deal with a VOTE NO recomendation. We didnt have enough to do the same in MCI and we didnt think there was a need in AFW. We even tried taking the Union and the company to court, a week after our application for a TRO against the contract was rejected the International threw Chuck Schalk and myself out of office in their Kangaroo Court where the accusor picks the Judge and Jury. The reason why the TRO was rejected was because we, the Locals are not party to the agreement. Legally we have no rights to the agreement and there is no legal requirement for a Negotiating Committee. You need to read two cases where the TWU testified in court that they own the deal and that Local Unions have no say, one is the case that Local 501 brought against the International in reference to splitting off maintenance into seperate Locals and the other is our case. The International could dismiss us if it chose to and negotiate the deal on their own, they know that the only way for them to get these concessionary deals to pass is to make it come from the people the members chose to represent them. Thats the reason they have us there and as long as we play by their rules it has worked every time. I dont play by their rules.

Bob, I resigned because I chose not associate myself with an organization that diminishes our profession. I obviously made the wrong decision back in 1999 by running for TWU office. The TWU is a disgrace to the AMT craft & class. The only thing I will commit to is backing other organizations that enhance the AMT profession. You obviously have the same beliefs as the TWU leadership, otherwise you would resign too.

I choose to try and make changes, whether or not I'm successful remains to be seen. If you want to push for an alternate option thats your right, so is standing on the sidelines and doing nothing. I think that I've (along with several others) made a slight difference, thats debatable, certainly not enough of a difference, but the fact is you get more info now than you ever got in the past. You can look and see exactly what we are asking for, ask the FAs if they know what their current table position is. In the meantime I represent my coworkers to the best of my ability with whats in place. Yes the TA was pretty bad, and it was pushed through the committee with the help of your President, in fact he was the main proponent of the June 2009 proposal which wasnt much better.

You obviously have the same beliefs as the TWU leadership, otherwise you would resign too.

You obviously dont know my beliefs, and just because you chose to quit and run away from the fight (what else have you done for the last 10 years?) doesnt mean that those who choose to continue to fight are in league with those who are willing to discount our labor for more dues payers but every coward has to have some way of justifying their actions by criticizing the actions of others, even if its just to themselves.

Just to let you know.....I voted No in 2003, and for the rejected T/A, and I will continue to vote NO until my pay & benefits are fully restored!

In the meantime you will sit on the sidelines and let the voice or ORD say that the status quo is just fine in ORD.

 

[Bob Owens]

I don't recall, but wasn't Bob Owens president of 562 in 2003? What does he know about the SERP, if the article is correct? Matter of fact, I still have the Jim Little letter dated April 17, 2003 where Little tells the members about the SERP.

Something just doesn't smell right about the whole concessionary deal. This almost proves that the TWU and AA tag teamed against the membership in 2003. I can't prove nothing, but a little birdie tells me someone within the union got a boat load of money to help AA rape US. That's just my gut feeling!!!!

Nope, Treasurer.

I agree they did tag team us in 2003. Other than "company paid Union business" the company pretty much got or is going for every thing they said they would go for under the "Vermont Plan".

Unlike the Pilots who got a 9% snapback once the productivity gains kicked in we got nothing for the additional productivity gains. We were told by Sonny Hall that he "would not rest" until we got all our concessions back with the early openers in 2006. For some reason that never happened. To add insult to injury the company undervalued the cost outs then used what they call a "roll up adjustment" to maximize the concessions even more. What the Roll Up adjustment did was give the company two bites at the apple. Lets say they said the seven sick days they took was worth $10 million(made up number), they claimed the $10 million was based on the current rate of pay and if you cut the pay by 17.5% then the value of the 7 sick days was worth 17.5% less so we had to find more concessions to meet the $320 million objective. We got scammed. They compounded the concessions, the more our pay was cut the more we had to give up in order to meet "the value", in reality they got much much more than the $320million we were credited with. The slick little scam they pulled wasnt to save AA $320 million in labor costs it was to have us give up $320 million in value, AA's savings were larger than $320 million. Thats why I've pushed for the companys full cost outs, without success, and why the company will not produce them, because once they produce the cost outs then they will expose what they did in 2003.

 

[strikeforce]

Read your contract. Article 47.



Well you seem to have all the answers you need already so there isnt much use convincing you otherwise but maybe you should consider this. The fact is that OH is the majority, now you want the union to convince those guys they should vote away their jobs so you can get $50/hr?



Maybe your Local did but ours didn't. We even took out an Ad in the Tulsa World giving our opinion on the deal with a VOTE NO recomendation. We didnt have enough to do the same in MCI and we didnt think there was a need in AFW. We even tried taking the Union and the company to court, a week after our application for a TRO against the contract was rejected the International threw Chuck Schalk and myself out of office in their Kangaroo Court where the accusor picks the Judge and Jury. The reason why the TRO was rejected was because we, the Locals are not party to the agreement. Legally we have no rights to the agreement and there is no legal requirement for a Negotiating Committee. You need to read two cases where the TWU testified in court that they own the deal and that Local Unions have no say, one is the case that Local 501 brought against the International in reference to splitting off maintenance into seperate Locals and the other is our case. The International could dismiss us if it chose to and negotiate the deal on their own, they know that the only way for them to get these concessionary deals to pass is to make it come from the people the members chose to represent them. Thats the reason they have us there and as long as we play by their rules it has worked every time. I dont play by their rules.




I choose to try and make changes, whether or not I'm successful remains to be seen. If you want to push for an alternate option thats your right, so is standing on the sidelines and doing nothing. I think that I've (along with several others) made a slight difference, thats debatable, certainly not enough of a difference, but the fact is you get more info now than you ever got in the past. You can look and see exactly what we are asking for, ask the FAs if they know what their current table position is. In the meantime I represent my coworkers to the best of my ability with whats in place. Yes the TA was pretty bad, and it was pushed through the committee with the help of your President, in fact he was the main proponent of the June 2009 proposal which wasnt much better.



You obviously dont know my beliefs, and just because you chose to quit and run away from the fight (what else have you done for the last 10 years?) doesnt mean that those who choose to continue to fight are in league with those who are willing to discount our labor for more dues payers but every coward has to have some way of justifying their actions by criticizing the actions of others, even if its just to themselves.



In the meantime you will sit on the sidelines and let the voice or ORD say that the status quo is just fine in ORD.

Bob Owens, Thank you for putting everything into perspective, and these are the very reasons why the TWU needs to go!

Yes I want $50 an hour, and so do you, and we both know it's not going to happen, just like we know $40 per hour is not going to happen. Let's be fair and honest here....we both can come on this forum and compare ourselves to UPS, WN, and Fed Ex, or the 3P hack shops, but the fight for the membership is NOT against AA.....it's against our own UNION Leadership! You just admitted it in the previous quotes. The union did scam us in 2003. I believe they're scamming us right now, and you don't know it. Maybe you are just a witness, and you go down every month and waste your time, and that's because you really don't know the backdoor deals being made between Little and Arpey. Thank you for admitting that negotiations are a sham. Thank you for admitting that the TWU is more Organized Labor than a labor organization.

I criticize you and I blast my president every time I see him. I have that right as a dues paying member. It's to keep you and everybody else honest. Bob, I don't sit on the sidelines. I pick my battles, and I do it on my terms. So, it may seem that I've done nothing for 10 years, but I'm right there in the battles. I'm a thorn in everyone's behind. I question every move. I'm not stupid! I know the TWU is screwing the membership more than AA is, and I also know that the leaders stack the deck against us, and they do it so WE can't revolt or throw them out. Little & Co. are untouchable. I don't associate myself with a bunch of scam artists. I spend my time weeding out the scams. Just like I got you to admit that we got scammed in 2003.

I've told you before....ORD is content with the status quo because of the CS Policy, and people can come to work and play with their laptops for 8 hours. How do you convince these people that they're getting screwed by the TWU and AA? They complain and think you're screwing them when you ask them to bring ACARS Paper out to a flight. Again, the complacency is all a set-up by union and company....this way we can't complain when THEY screw us again in negotiations.

 

[frontline]

I read this and can't help but thinking that my own pay could have gone up if TWU hadn't backed out of the TA's last year!