APA getting a tad nervous?

[Bob Owens]

BTW, I was prepared to be a no vote until the end.

So in the end you voted YES?

You voted no, you got abrogated, terms will be imposed, eventually you'll get a contract and yea it might be better than what you turned down.

Just keep in mind that between now and then, the terms that will be imposed on you may not be negotiable down the road.
The damage that will be done may be permanent.

What a stupid statement. What do you mean by "may not be negotiable down the road"? Everything is negotiable in contract talks.

The damage that will be done may be permanent? Dont you mean "the damage that MAY be done MAY be permanent?" And tell me had they voted YES how would they undo the damage they would be doing to their profession over the nest SIX YEARS???

How are we?

In 2003 we gave concessions that nobody, even those in BK gave to "save the pension and retiree medical" , now we are giving up more than anyone else ever gave up, lost the pension and retiree medical but didnt get back what we gave up to save it. We have 5 holidays at half pay for what??? 5 sick days why?? Less vacation because???? How do we undo that damage???

 

[Hopeful]

So in the end you voted YES?

The end I was referring to was abrogation and we never got there. And that is where I thought we would be.
NO all the way for me.

What a stupid statement. What do you mean by "may not be negotiable down the road"? Everything is negotiable in contract talks.

EVERYTHING is negotiable? Really? Doesn't look like we negotiated ANYTHING back that was lost in 2003.

The damage that will be done may be permanent? Dont you mean "the damage that MAY be done MAY be permanent?" And tell me had they voted YES how would they undo the damage they would be doing to their profession over the nest SIX YEARS???

How are we?

In 2003 we gave concessions that nobody, even those in BK gave to "save the pension and retiree medical" , now we are giving up more than anyone else ever gave up, lost the pension and retiree medical but didnt get back what we gave up to save it. We have 5 holidays at half pay for what??? 5 sick days why?? Less vacation because???? How do we undo that damage???

Yes permanent damage IS done....
With respect to us, do you think OH will ever return along with the thousands of job losses? Do you think we are going to get everything back that we lost in 2003? Six, ten years from now?
How about all the items you just mentioned, do you think we are getting any of it back?
Yes, the damage, for the most part is done.

And as for the pilots, I said their damage could be done as well by the time they negotiate a new contract consenually.

The company finally got or is going to get the changes they want and I doubt they are going to give it all back in the future.
Alot of what will happen will be permanent.

 

[Hopeful]

You are reading that into it and it is because of your preconceived hatred of the pilot group. No one else who objectively reads that article could possibly walk away with that opinion.

Again, where did I say I hate the pilot group? The point of my post was that you knew abrogation was coming and seem to be in shock over it. You called the company's bluff and have to deal with it.

Gee thanks for the sage advice and "concern". I think we can make decisions on our own.

I'm sure things are running real smooth here at AA so you have nothing to worry about.

Just another day to me.

 

[Hopeful]

Dont mind Hopeful, he apparently has anger issues against Pilots and ex-TWA workers. Dont know why, but I'm sure you have your share of guys like him as well. So yea we may have to "live vicariously" through you guys but if and when you set up pickets lets us know so I can encourage my peers to show support.

Now you added a PHD in pyschology to your resume, Bob?

I got news for you, there are ALOT of folks on the floor who have opposing opinions to the OWENS PLAN....but they just don't air them.
I notice you don't like words being put in your mouth, so don't put them in MINE.

I do not hate the pilots and ex-TWAers...
Maybe you need to have sensitivity training for your local elected officers on this subject because they have ISSUES ON TWA as well.
Your opinions are no more or no less valid than mine or anyone elses. You must feel like you have some kind of mandate since getting voted in as pres after your spanking by the TWU. But once you hit the floor in a few weeks, and begin working again, you are going to see your peers with different feelings than you claim you know so well.
And as for the TWA issue, you are so off the charts if you think I am the only one who has issues with the whole deal, you are in LaLa land. But having issues does not mean hate.
I didn't see ALL THE PILOTS, F/A's and agents open up their seniority lists to the former TWA folks either....

But since you will be working, I guess you will have to walk the pilots' "informational only" picket line on your own time because now you can't do it on the member's and company's dime!

 

[AC Tynker]

So in the end you voted YES?




What a stupid statement. What do you mean by "may not be negotiable down the road"? Everything is negotiable in contract talks.

The damage that will be done may be permanent? Dont you mean "the damage that MAY be done MAY be permanent?" And tell me had they voted YES how would they undo the damage they would be doing to their profession over the nest SIX YEARS???

How are we?

In 2003 we gave concessions that nobody, even those in BK gave to "save the pension and retiree medical" , now we are giving up more than anyone else ever gave up, lost the pension and retiree medical but didnt get back what we gave up to save it. We have 5 holidays at half pay for what??? 5 sick days why?? Less vacation because???? How do we undo that damage???

That should have been worded "I am going to make a Stupid Statement, Everything is negotiable in contract talks."
Correct me if I am wrong but the company stated Holidays were Nonnegotiable Period during BK negotiations.

 

[Super FLUF]

Thank you for the kind words Bob.

You pretty much summed up the simplicity of our situation quite well - the company made an offer, we thought it was inadequate, and we voted no because we thought we can eventually get a better deal.

That's it. End of story. We don't feel as if we are better than anyone else on property. We don't say we are "special" nor do we expect special treatment.

Despite Hopeful's bitter rantings, we knew fully well what difficult road was ahead for us. We knew we were the first to go sailing into uncharted waters. We knew that the company would pull out all of the stops to get us to cave.

On that note, the company has now switched from implementing LBFO items to the threat of implementing all of the worst case scenario term sheet items. This was done under the auspices of "the pilots will cave under the pressure". Yeah.....all it has done is piss everyone off and hardened their resolve even more. Brilliant.

Once again, only time will tell whether we made a smart move or not.

 

[bigjets]

Thank you for the kind words Bob.

You pretty much summed up the simplicity of our situation quite well - the company made an offer, we thought it was inadequate, and we voted no because we thought we can eventually get a better deal.

That's it. End of story. We don't feel as if we are better than anyone else on property. We don't say we are "special" nor do we expect special treatment.

Despite Hopeful's bitter rantings, we knew fully well what difficult road was ahead for us. We knew we were the first to go sailing into uncharted waters. We knew that the company would pull out all of the stops to get us to cave.

On that note, the company has now switched from implementing LBFO items to the threat of implementing all of the worst case scenario term sheet items. This was done under the auspices of "the pilots will cave under the pressure". Yeah.....all it has done is piss everyone off and hardened their resolve even more. Brilliant.

Once again, only time will tell whether we made a smart move or not.

I thought one pilot explained it the best, it's better to have a horrible deal for a couple of years, then a bad deal for 10 years, with AA's record of delaying contract talks for YEARS, there was no other option in his mind.

 

[eolesen]

On that note, the company has now switched from implementing LBFO items to the threat of implementing all of the worst case scenario term sheet items. This was done under the auspices of "the pilots will cave under the pressure". Yeah.....all it has done is piss everyone off and hardened their resolve even more. Brilliant.

Once again, only time will tell whether we made a smart move or not.

I didn't think there was any doubt that the worst case scenario terms would be imposed.

When a union draw a line in the sand, and doesn't cross it, they have resolve and backbone.

When the company draws a line in the sand, and doesn't cross it, they're being threatening and punitive?

Guess it all boils down to which side of the line you're on, but I have a newfound respect for AMR if they do indeed follow thru on the term sheet vs. rewarding the pilots for voting no.

And for the record, I have no hatred of pilots. I just have no respect for people thinking they're immune from economic gravity...

 

[WorldTraveler]

I just have no respect for people thinking they're immune from economic gravity...

amen.
Just to be very clear, though, the economic stakes for both sides are extraordinarily high and it is precisely the uncharted territory of the approach that both sides are taking that increases the financial risks.

 

[Hopeful]

And for the record, I have no hatred of pilots. I just have no respect for people thinking they're immune from economic gravity...

Be careful, E! SuperFluf and Owens might put you in the same doghouse as me!

 

[Super FLUF]

I didn't think there was any doubt that the worst case scenario terms would be imposed.

Originally, they were not. The original email by Denise Lynn on AApilots listed most changes to be out of the LBFO. However, it appears that a new scheme formulated by Jeff Brundage to implement all of the Term Sheet items in an effort to "squeeze" us was hatched. A day or two later a new message was posted by Laura Einspanier that said all changes would be term sheet items. In fact, some of the items were worse than the term sheet items, which the company cannot do. This leads me to believe that this is part of the bluff.

Brilliant move. It has motivated the pilots beyond belief. Another visionary move was sending out the hundreds of WARN letters to the mechanics in ORD and LAX. I'm sure they are beyond motivated now. The timing couldn't have been better.

Guess it all boils down to which side of the line you're on, but I have a newfound respect for AMR if they do indeed follow thru on the term sheet vs. rewarding the pilots for voting no.

I'm......................SHOCKED!!!

 

[bigjets]

I didn't think there was any doubt that the worst case scenario terms would be imposed.

When a union draw a line in the sand, and doesn't cross it, they have resolve and backbone.

When the company draws a line in the sand, and doesn't cross it, they're being threatening and punitive?

Guess it all boils down to which side of the line you're on, but I have a newfound respect for AMR if they do indeed follow thru on the term sheet vs. rewarding the pilots for voting no.

And for the record, I have no hatred of pilots. I just have no respect for people thinking they're immune from economic gravity...

well said

 

[johnny kat]

Anyone remember Charlie Bryant the President of the IAM at Eastern Airlines. The line in the sand was drawn and both sides played their Reindeer games...Then one day Eastern Airlines became no more.

The moral of this story is both sides need to consider the worst case scenario and work backwards from the edge of the cliff they are standing on. USAirways has in its' employee a very large contingent of former Eastern employees who were caught between the two sides. If anyone cared to ask one of them what they thought about the fight at Eastern it would mirror many of the same circumstances at AA. History does repeat itself.

 

[WorldTraveler]

indeed it does.

 

[Super FLUF]

I have no doubt that at some point, AA management will lob the Ch 7 FUD grenade.

The problem is, nobody even cares any more. Term sheet working conditions vs. Ch 7? Meh. Besides, AA has billions in the bank, all other work groups nailed down, and is a huge money pump for a lot of these corporations. I see the probability of actual liquidation very low.