APA sues AA, claiming 1113 does not apply to "expired" CBA

[john john]

Why don't you just click on the link and read the decision to answer your question?

Again, I don’t have the knowledge
Do you

http://www.abiworld.org/committees/newsletters/pensionsbenefits/vol2num3/Decisions.html
Do the debtor have the right unilaterally to impose any conditions? Or could the debtor impose the terms of its very first S1113 proposal?
http://www.nysb.uscourts.gov/opinions/alg/133670_2962_opinion.pdf
What would ALPA do

Are should I say what did ALPA do

 

[Bob Owens]

Exactly. Gotta love the pick and choose nature of the argument. "We don't have a CBA as defined under bankruptcy law but we have a CBA as defined under the RLA."

This filing might not result in Rule 11 sanctions, but I'll bet it provokes a rebuke from the judge.

Really? Is it any more absurd than a Judge saying that the contract never existed? In order for a contract to be annulled there has to be evidence of fraud or that the parties were not capable of giving consent. How could the arguement be made that a contract that existed and was repeatedly amended over several decades should be annulled? Abrogation is not annulment. Its one thing for the court to RIP it up, even though 1168 of the code says says that Contracts under the RLA can not be abrogated in BK, they have to go follow sect 6, its another to say that it never existed and if the court is declaring that the contract is annulled then arent they really saying that management is incapable of responsibly running the company?

I think the Pilots are correct here in challenging the ruling in a round about way. I wish that we would join this suit.

The RLA is pretty clear in that the only body that can impose changes to our pay and working conditions is Congress. Not a buisness friendly court. Its pretty clear in that if they change the status quo we can resort to self help.

You cliam to be a lawyer, lets hear your opinion of the ruling other than "it is what it is".

 

[john john]

You cliam to be a lawyer, lets hear your opinion of the ruling other than "it is what it is".

That sure would explain a lot or maybe not

 

[strikeforce]

First, kudos to the pilots for challenging the company. I, too, wish the TWU would join in the fight.

I would like one of our experts on this forum to show me where I can find information where BK section 1113 prohibits strikes by the unions. I've read a few cases where the bankruptcy judge weighed the possibilty of a strike on the debtors, but I still haven't found where it's prohibited. Unless, one reverts back to the RLA. And, if that's the case, I believe the pilots have a good case. If I'm not mistaken, I believe the IBT went on strike against CAL after CAL unilaterally rejected the CBA.

AA is a melting pot waiting to explode! We're not lying when WE say EA all over again!!!

I will not VOLUNTARILY GIVE AA another dime.....THEY WILL HAVE TO STEAL IT THRU THE COURTS!!!

 

[Flex]

After all that has occurred in this industry over the last 30 years I am absolutely amazed and perplexed that the AA unions think there is something to be gained from the bankruptcy process. All the legal maneuverings and obstinance by the union leadership is absolutely amazing to watch since it has all been tried before and never worked.

13,000 people will be let go.

The pilot and FA contracts will be abrogated and terms imposed.

The posturing by the union leadership is just for show. Laura Glading is terminally disgusted!

Bankruptcy is ugly and nasty and it is harmful to the employees. There just isn't any way around that.

The show is over and the producers are back in stringing money together to try and get the act together. Unions hold very little sway over what will eventually transpire. Once everything is fixed like the creditors and investors want then the unions can come back in from the sidelines and resume their advocacy.

I went through a bankruptcy at an airline as a union leader. Maybe rather than try and reinvent the wheel the APA and the other unions should consult with those unions who have weathered the process.

APA isn't doing their membership any good right now under their present course and the AFA leadership is completely out to lunch.

 

[john john]

First, kudos to the pilots for challenging the company. I, too, wish the TWU would join in the fight.

While we think this bankruptcy could have and should have been avoided, it does not come as a surprise. TWU engaged special bankruptcy counsel two years ago as a contingency and our attorney Sharon Levine of the firm Lowenstein Sander PC has been investigating TWU claims against American in connection with her presentation of TWU’s position to the U.S. Bankruptcy Court for the Southern District of New York.

This is likely to be a long and ugly process and our union will fight like hell to make sure that front line workers don’t pay an unfair price for management’s failings.

http://www.twu.org/international/blog_archive/2011/11/

Good luck, you better believe the eyes of the industry are on this

 

[Super FLUF]

APA isn't doing their membership any good right now under their present course

Oh yes, we should just raise the white flag and allow AMR to gang rape us at will and say thank you when they are done.

NOT GONNA HAPPEN

They may in the end get their way but we are going to fight them at every step. APA just threw a wrench into AMR's 1113c machinery and I'm glad they did it.

 

[Mr Red]

After all that has occurred in this industry over the last 30 years I am absolutely amazed and perplexed that the AA unions think there is something to be gained from the bankruptcy process. All the legal maneuverings and obstinance by the union leadership is absolutely amazing to watch since it has all been tried before and never worked.

13,000 people will be let go.

The pilot and FA contracts will be abrogated and terms imposed.

The posturing by the union leadership is just for show. Laura Glading is terminally disgusted!

Bankruptcy is ugly and nasty and it is harmful to the employees. There just isn't any way around that.

The show is over and the producers are back in stringing money together to try and get the act together. Unions hold very little sway over what will eventually transpire. Once everything is fixed like the creditors and investors want then the unions can come back in from the sidelines and resume their advocacy.

I went through a bankruptcy at an airline as a union leader. Maybe rather than try and reinvent the wheel the APA and the other unions should consult with those unions who have weathered the process.
APA isn't doing their membership any good right now under their present course and the AFA leadership is completely out to lunch.

The other Airlines didn't have 4 Billion in bank when they filed.The transfer of our wages to the OIL CARTELS is getting old !

 

[strikeforce]

After all that has occurred in this industry over the last 30 years I am absolutely amazed and perplexed that the AA unions think there is something to be gained from the bankruptcy process. All the legal maneuverings and obstinance by the union leadership is absolutely amazing to watch since it has all been tried before and never worked.

13,000 people will be let go.

The pilot and FA contracts will be abrogated and terms imposed.

The posturing by the union leadership is just for show. Laura Glading is terminally disgusted!

Bankruptcy is ugly and nasty and it is harmful to the employees. There just isn't any way around that.

The show is over and the producers are back in stringing money together to try and get the act together. Unions hold very little sway over what will eventually transpire. Once everything is fixed like the creditors and investors want then the unions can come back in from the sidelines and resume their advocacy.

I went through a bankruptcy at an airline as a union leader. Maybe rather than try and reinvent the wheel the APA and the other unions should consult with those unions who have weathered the process.

APA isn't doing their membership any good right now under their present course and the AFA leadership is completely out to lunch.

Don't be perplexed, AA is a totally different animal than most other bankruptcies.

There was ONE primary reason AA went BK......to decimate and destroy the CBA of the unions!

AA hasn't "defaulted" on any loans.

AA has 5B in the bank.

And, AA didn't need DIP financing. That means the same inept management team will lead the "NEW" AA forward. That, in itself, spells trouble for the new AA. The same clowns that led us to BK will eventually lead us to "Liquidation"!

 

[john john]

I went through a bankruptcy at an airline as a union leader. Maybe rather than try and reinvent the wheel the APA and the other unions should consult with those unions who have weathered the process.

Were all guessing and trying to narrow it down

 

[eolesen]

The same clowns that led us to BK will eventually lead us to "Liquidation"!

Oh, surely you'll have a chance to vote out your union leadership at some point over the next 18 months, right?... 😉

 

[strikeforce]

Oh, surely you'll have a chance to vote out your union leadership at some point over the next 18 months, right?... 😉

Well, that would only cover half the clowns.......

 

[eolesen]

Well, that would only cover half the clowns.......

Right. I forgot you can't.vote out the International.... 😉

 

[strikeforce]

Right. I forgot you can't.vote out the International.... 😉

E, I hope you're not offended? seems everytime I poke fun at management, you step in and defend the clowns.

You couldn't make it anymore obvious E!

 

[amt66]

Really? Is it any more absurd than a Judge saying that the contract never existed? In order for a contract to be annulled there has to be evidence of fraud or that the parties were not capable of giving consent. How could the arguement be made that a contract that existed and was repeatedly amended over several decades should be annulled? Abrogation is not annulment. Its one thing for the court to RIP it up, even though 1168 of the code says says that Contracts under the RLA can not be abrogated in BK, they have to go follow sect 6, its another to say that it never existed and if the court is declaring that the contract is annulled then arent they really saying that management is incapable of responsibly running the company?

I think the Pilots are correct here in challenging the ruling in a round about way. I wish that we would join this suit.

The RLA is pretty clear in that the only body that can impose changes to our pay and working conditions is Congress. Not a buisness friendly court. Its pretty clear in that if they change the status quo we can resort to self help.

You cliam to be a lawyer, lets hear your opinion of the ruling other than "it is what it is".

Wouldn't the TWU and APFA join this suit or just give in to the company's demands? In the pilots win this argument both those other unions would look stupid in the eyes of their members