Army Sucides highest in 20 years

[EastUS]

EastUS......I'll buy the ticket.

 

[KCFlyer]

Do I actually, even possibly..have this right? = Presuming that you were again, magically of Draft age: You'd run to Canada...and seemingly imply that being within some rabble of "protesters" in ANY way equates to actual service?...by ANY possible, moral measurement!!?? :blink: 🙄 That's indeed a "good one"

East...here's his point...back during WWII, my uncle couldn't go because of a heart condition. He went to Canada to see if he could join THEIR military to fight the Germans. Young men were FLOCKING to join the Armed Forces for that war. Because WWII was a "just" war. What exactly were we going to gain in Vietnam or Iraq? We let the terrorists go in Afghanistan, only to have them grow stronger. We should have stayed the course in Afghanistan and not worried about Saddam. How many kids are flocking to join the Army these days?

 

[Gilding the Lily]

East...here's his point...back during WWII, my uncle couldn't go because of a heart condition. He went to Canada to see if he could join THEIR military to fight the Germans. Young men were FLOCKING to join the Armed Forces for that war. Because WWII was a "just" war. What exactly were we going to gain in Vietnam or Iraq? We let the terrorists go in Afghanistan, only to have them grow stronger. We should have stayed the course in Afghanistan and not worried about Saddam. How many kids are flocking to join the Army these days?

Many of those that join are from certain places in the South or places like Detroit. Of those, many will explain that they joined because their exit opportunities are better than if they tried to get a job straight from HS (if they completed) or to pay for future schooling.

I do no mention this to belittle our military (I recognize that many people join the military from great colleges/careers, and also, that great soldiers do not necessarily need to be well-educated). But I do mention it to illustrate that for many soldiers, their intentions in joining the military are quite different from those of the WWII era soldiers (at the very least, the priorities for joining are vastly different).

 

[KCFlyer]

Many of those that join are from certain places in the South or places like Detroit. Of those, many will explain that they joined because their exit opportunities are better than if they tried to get a job straight from HS (if they completed) or to pay for future schooling.

I do no mention this to belittle our military (I recognize that many people join the military from great colleges/careers, and also, that great soldiers do not necessarily need to be well-educated). But I do mention it to illustrate that for many soldiers, their intentions in joining the military are quite different from those of the WWII era soldiers (at the very least, the priorities for joining are vastly different).

Yeah....back in WWII all Americans were asked to sacrifice for the war effort. So far, all that's been asked of Americans is to go shopping.

 

[EastUS]

Many of those that join are from certain places in the South or places like Detroit. ............. and also, that great soldiers do not necessarily need to be well-educated).

" do no mention this to belittle our military (I recognize that many people join the military from great colleges/careers, and also, that great soldiers do not necessarily need to be well-educated)." So..which is it?

Wow!....Those poor, simple-minded, ignorant young people!...all so desperate for bettering themselves...that the real possibility of their deaths or maiming wounds, doesn't distract them at all from persuing such a wonderfully, self-interested endeavor....Makes perfect sense overall. 🙄 Let's not give them even the slightest credit for any even possbily higher motives, on a larger scale than you might wish to imagine. It's a liberal "given" that "education" is only attainable within the university system, and that the immensely complex enviornment of the modern battlefield, with all it's "simple" weapons, communications, and supportive technology....could easilly be mastered by the "uneducated".....Try it sometime While it hardly is the mark of being any "great soldier"..well shucks..even the average candidate for Major/LtCol is pretty much expected to have a master's degree, or be on the way to one shortly. Of course; It goes without saying that there is no intensive "in-house" training programs within the military at any level anyway. People can obviously, just be plucked directly off the worst streets in Detroit, placed immediately into F-16's/Tanks/Computer programming/radar operation/etc...and all would work perfectly well. Formal and intensive "Education" isn't limited to sipping lattes in the tiny arenas, so often only laughably described as "Instituions of Higher Learning"/Colleges/etc. It's my honest observation's that even the intial year of basic flight training was far more demanding and intensive than any/all total years/degrees/etc I received via the university system.

"Yeah....back in WWII all Americans were asked to sacrifice for the war effort. So far, all that's been asked of Americans is to go shopping." Except, perhaps, for "a few" Amercians and others that, briefly, tragically, and very personally.... "participated" on the morning of 9-11....and all the more reasons for properly appreciating the hideous sacrifices of well over 4,000 military families thus far......

"Young men were FLOCKING to join the Armed Forces for that war. Because WWII was a "just" war." Hmmm..and here, from my father and some of his friends...it was explained to me that it was simply because America had been attacked..in an 'unprovoked and dastardly" fashion...which was all their generation of people required to see it as fully "just" and fully necessary. The enemies of the time were bent on eventual global conquest and the enslavement of all others. (Hmm..sounds like a faimilar theme these days from a particular group of "The Faithful") Where that actually differs from today, as I see it..is that at least the forces of Japan had the "decency" to attack miltary targets, from military aircraft, proudly painted with their insignia. It was enough that the Empire of Japan had attacked at all, and hadn't first declared war, to send waiting lines all the way around blocks to the recruiting stations. Today?..We have a less "conveniently" identifiable group..which I shouldn't even mention..for "fear" of becoming "politically incorrect"..that's equally bent on global conquest, and the enslavement of all others...They just don't have the guts and discipline required for any possible achievement of that on any battlefield..and prefer strapping bombs on women and children/flying helpless people into buildings///etc, ad nauseum... instead. The "moral" difference between WWII and the current scenario's less aparent to me than to others it seems. What's the intended "solution"? = DOn't attack them/defend ourselves...just because they've not the needed Principles to even properly identify their origins? We shouldn't ever attack any such nations that so enthusiastically harbor such BS?..and seek the "Death to America!!" bit? It's at all rationally preferable to "wait and just hope" there'll be no further slaughter of our citizens here?....Ok...ummm..WHY?

"Because WWII was a "just" war." I agree that it was a tragic necessity..and fully "just"....certainly..as much as any wars could ever be said to be such anyway. "Young men were FLOCKING to join the Armed Forces for that war." Note that within that war...the horrific obliteration of entire cities and millions of people were considered as fully acceptable and even necessary to victory. There really weren't too many people fretting around about shooting some damm Korans/etc. Frankly?..I'm often amazed that we even still have courageious young people who'll join and fight...given all the literally INSANE, "Politically Correct"= wholesale BS, that they're subjected to.

Rant over 😉 Sigh..It really matters not what any of us, as individuals, really think about the issues in any case. I'd love nothing more than to be proven completely wrong in what I believe's likely to play out in all this mess.

"I believe that it is Peace, in our time"..Neville Chamberlain

 

[KCFlyer]

" Except, perhaps, for "a few" Amercians and others that, briefly, tragically, and very personally.... "participated" on the morning of 9-11....

Perhaps you could explain for me what role Iraq played in the 9/11 attacks on the US. Is it better that the one who masterminded the attack is still alive and his organization growing stronger and the leader of Iraq, who played no role in 9/11 is dead, but 4,000 servicemen lost their lives in his country.

 

[Gilding the Lily]

" do no mention this to belittle our military (I recognize that many people join the military from great colleges/careers, and also, that great soldiers do not necessarily need to be well-educated)." So..which is it?

It is both... read much?

 

[EastUS]

Perhaps you could explain for me what role Iraq played in the 9/11 attacks on the US.

I don't know the extent, if any, of Iraqi involvement. Do you? Neither of us is at all privy to what passes for "Intelligence" within the "Spook" community.

"Is it better that the one who masterminded the attack is still alive.." Of course not, and I'd be fine with any/all suggestions as to how best to kill him and his ilk.

"...and his organization growing stronger" I disagree. What attacks have taken place within the USA since 9-11?

 

[EastUS]

It is both... read much?

Aww..shucks no ma'am....I'se wuz jess' an' ignint po' boy in uniform fo' a piece a' time. Whatcha' gonna' 'spect outta' eeny such?

PS: I've often noted far more realistic world views and essential life wisdom, within coversations with PFC's, then has often been the case with many PhD's. A case in point..(especially referencing your earlier Detroit reference), was with a young USAF Sgt in Saudi-Ville during the buildup in '90 = "Well..in my opinion sir..I think that the dammm Saudis needed an army and air force..so they rented us." 😉 Reading every precious tome and diatribe ever published hardly equips anyone with such ready wisdom. 😉 Refesh my memory as to the specific books that birthed the mind of Socrates himself.....?

 

[KCFlyer]

I don't know the extent, if any, of Iraqi involvement. Do you? Neither of us is at all privy to what passes for "Intelligence" within the "Spook" community.

"Is it better that the one who masterminded the attack is still alive.." Of course not, and I'd be fine with any/all suggestions as to how best to kill him and his ilk.

"...and his organization growing stronger" I disagree. What attacks have taken place within the USA since 9-11?

Well....I'm no spook or double naught spy, but it would seem to me that you might want to get the guy who DID do something to you, rather than invade another country based on some "six degrees of separation" scenario.

As for no attacks within the USA since 9-11 - Let's see, the World Trade Center was bombed in 1993, just a few months after Clinton took office. I could guess that you are one who puts Clinton in the "do nothing" category, yet it took 8.5 years before a second attack took place. It's not been that long yet - let's give it another year and a half to insure that this attack on Iraq has prevented a second attack within the USA...okay?

 

[EastUS]

Well....I'm no spook or double naught spy, but it would seem to me that you might want to get the guy who DID do something to you, rather than invade another country based on some "six degrees of separation" scenario.

As for no attacks within the USA since 9-11 - Let's see, the World Trade Center was bombed in 1993, just a few months after Clinton took office. I could guess that you are one who puts Clinton in the "do nothing" category, yet it took 8.5 years before a second attack took place. It's not been that long yet - let's give it another year and a half to insure that this attack on Iraq has prevented a second attack within the USA...okay?

Understood KC. I'm not about to offer up any simplistic "Polar Bear Repellent" = "See? There aren't any around!...It works great!" argument. Quite honestly...there's MANY strategic reasons for wishing a continued presence in Iraq that serve US interests extremely well. They aren't supportable in any idealistic manner at all..but certainly exist in harsh reality. Take a look at any map of the middle east. Next; stick a drafting compass point at a major basing area in Iraq. Extend the other point to the distance easiily covered by a fully loaded strike fighter-bomber and draw the circle.....do it again with a few days/weeks travel distance by Tank....etc...and then...reconsider the lack of post 9-11 attacks on America within that perspective. "let's give it another year and a half to insure that this attack on Iraq has prevented a second attack within the USA...okay?" I don't look to actually see any immediate, large-scale attacks on the US...so long as the clear ability to put a bayonette up any discordant camel-driver's "home turf" is maintained. What any given enemies within that region have in their favor...is simply a lack of hardened resolve on the part of the American People..and a US government that's staffed by some of the vilest excuses for "people", that billions and billions in oil money can easilly "buy". That said scumbags think nothing of sacrificing thousands of young lives for their own "games", without seeking any overall and at least somewhat lasting triumph in the area, will always sicken me as well.

 

[Gilding the Lily]

Aww..shucks no ma'am....I'se wuz jess' an' ignint po' boy in uniform fo' a piece a' time. Whatcha' gonna' 'spect outta' eeny such?

PS: I've often noted far more realistic world views and essential life wisdom, within coversations with PFC's, then has often been the case with many PhD's. A case in point..(especially referencing your earlier Detroit reference), was with a young USAF Sgt in Saudi-Ville during the buildup in '90 = "Well..in my opinion sir..I think that the dammm Saudis needed an army and air force..so they rented us." 😉 Reading every precious tome and diatribe ever published hardly equips anyone with such ready wisdom. 😉 Refesh my memory as to the specific books that birthed the mind of Socrates himself.....?

Now you have gone from twisting words to plain old making up stuff so that you can argue some petty point. Who are you arguing with???

 

[KCFlyer]

Understood KC. I'm not about to offer up any simplistic "Polar Bear Repellent" = "See? There aren't any around!...It works great!" argument. Quite honestly...there's MANY strategic reasons for wishing a continued presence in Iraq that serve US interests extremely well. They aren't supportable in any idealistic manner at all..but certainly exist in harsh reality. Take a look at any map of the middle east. Next; stick a drafting compass point at a major basing area in Iraq. Extend the other point to the distance easiily covered by a fully loaded strike fighter-bomber and draw the circle.....do it again with a few days/weeks travel distance by Tank....etc...and then...reconsider the lack of post 9-11 attacks on America within that perspective. "let's give it another year and a half to insure that this attack on Iraq has prevented a second attack within the USA...okay?" I don't look to actually see any immediate, large-scale attacks on the US...so long as the clear ability to put a bayonette up any discordant camel-driver's "home turf" is maintained. What any given enemies within that region have in their favor...is simply a lack of hardened resolve on the part of the American People..and a US government that's staffed by some of the vilest excuses for "people", that billions and billions in oil money can easilly "buy". That said scumbags think nothing of sacrificing thousands of young lives for their own "games", without seeking any overall and at least somewhat lasting triumph in the area, will always sicken me as well.

So.....all that was worth breaking off the hunt for bin laden Again...Iraq wasn't involved in 9/11, so the "home turf" the bayonet we are sticking up a camel driver is in a country that didn't do anything to us. Can you not see how that might be a tool for recruiting MORE terrorists? I don't worry about the 'camel drivers' over there...I worry about the ones that are here now (since very little money was spent securing our ports). Iraq being "home turf" for bin laden and al qaeda is akin to Iowa being "home turf" in a dispute between Mexico and Canada.

 

[delldude]

It is really nice how you went back and edited and augmented your message after I had posted my reply. Adding out of context snippets and self-serving statements by the accused does not prove anything.
You have delusions of your jaundiced opinions....

Are you suggesting that the incidents I referred to did not take place? Are you contesting that twenty-four Iraqis, men, women and children were killed in Haditha? Are you denying that at least fifteen of those killed were noncombatants? Are you challenging that the killings were retribution for an attack a Marines' convoy in which Lance Corporal Miguel Terrazas was killed? Are you refuting that five Iraqis, a taxi driver and four teenagers, were ordered out of their car and shot dead execution style? Are you saying that Marines did not go into three houses and killed nineteen people including women, children and old people? Are you contesting that an intelligence squad took pictures shortly after the shootings that were inconsistent with the Marines' report of a firefight?

No-Yes-No-Maybe

There may be issues concerning who is responsible for these atrocities. The military courts may be whitewashing these incidents. However, there is no doubt whether they took place.

You were not there and rely on second hand accounts of the alleged incident.


We are not Nazi Germany. I expect better from our military.

PBS - Frontline

60 Minutes - The Killings In Haditha

CBS - Prosecutors: Unaired "60 Minutes" Footage Has Marine's Admission Of Crimes In Iraq Massacre

BBC News - What happened at Haditha?

Left wing bias from your POV....'smatter...nothing in Wiki???

 

[Veritas]

You have delusions of your jaundiced opinions....

Can't come up with anything original? I guess I should be honored that you chose to parrot my words. Polly wants a cracker? 😛

You were not there and rely on second hand accounts of the alleged incident.

The same can be said for you concerning these incidents and just about every accusation that you have parroted on these boards against those whose politics you do not care for (i.e., Bill and Hillary Clinton). 🙄

Can you say double standard? :down: