Army Sucides highest in 20 years

[Cosworth]

Do I actually, even possibly..have this right? = Presuming that you were again, magically of Draft age: You'd run to Canada..

Yes.

.and seemingly imply that being within some rabble of "protesters" in ANY way equates to actual service?...by ANY possible, moral measurement!!?? :blink: 🙄 That's indeed a "good one"

Please show me where I equated the two? What I did say was that those who protested the war and those who refused to fight the governments political war (Viet-nam) helped in bringing about a close to that war. Had no one spke up to say that the king was wearing no clothes, the government would have continued the fight.

"I would argue that it less to do with cowardice.." I'm sure that you would 😉 Allow others of us to fully differ......

That right is afforded to you by the US Constitution. I have no say in it nor do I wish too.

Addendum...My laughter's subsided sufficiently to again type 😉....So..in essence...although you feel it incumbent on those heroic individuals who exist to "tell the government that what they were doing was wrong and that they did not have the support of the people they were elected to govern". to pursue their activities..Ummmm.rather than suffer at all yourself in that noble endeavor...Ummm...you'd personally flee to Canada? Well Golly!..Who's going to be here to keep the government in check then!? Have you NO sense of civic duty sir? 😉

I would protest up until the draft notice came. I have no intention of suffering because my government chose to fight an unethical and unneeded war. WW II, sign me up. Viet Nam or the Gulf so that people candrive their SUV's and oil execs and others can get rich, nah. Let them pay for their own mercenaries to fight it for them. My sense of civic duty ends where Cheney and Co. start to get rich off of the blood and guts of the US military and the economy of this country.

You do your share of "trash-talking" about young soldiers who are actually fighting and dying...yet...you would be too inconvenienced personally..to even suffer such a small thing as possible incarceration for your most earnest "beliefs"? This is hilarious indeed. What a magnificent moral compass to have.

Moral compass? I am surprised you are even familiar with the term. Show me an instance where I "trash talked" the service people. I'll make you a deal. When the people who initiate the war serve in the war beside their children, I'll be happy to serve time in prison for my beliefs. When the US government institutes the draft (we are in a world are according to your leader) and starts to issue war bonds to support the war effort then I will serve in prison. Until such time, take your moral compass and shove it where the sun don't shine. Apparently it will have plenty of company given all the crap you have been spewing.

 

[Cosworth]

I don't know the extent, if any, of Iraqi involvement. Do you? Neither of us is at all privy to what passes for "Intelligence" within the "Spook" community.

"Is it better that the one who masterminded the attack is still alive.." Of course not, and I'd be fine with any/all suggestions as to how best to kill him and his ilk.

We know what roll Afghanistan played in 9/11. You would think if the US had evidence to support Iraqs involvement they would have put it out there. Especially since it cost them seats in Congress in 2006 and will cost them the WH and more seats in Congress in 2008.

"...and his organization growing stronger" I disagree. What attacks have taken place within the USA since 9-11?

Since I have not had a heart attack till now, does that mean I will not have one tomorrow?

 

[EastUS]

QUOTE (EastUS @ Jun 6 2008, 11:58 AM)
Do I actually, even possibly..have this right? = Presuming that you were again, magically of Draft age: You'd run to Canada..?

Yes.

I think that we can stop right there.........

Self interest and complete cowardice aren't actually "Virtues"...and there would have been someone directly down the list from you, who'd have had to fight, and very possibly die in place of your personally..."oh-so-very-precious" little arse. That's how conscription actually works. So; You'd have no problem fleeing to Canada and leaving someone else to fight in your place?...but: "WWII? Sign me up"..Umm...SURE THING....as IF 😉..and kindly, just spare us all such wantonly "heroic"...total BS. The very concept of "Duty", much less "Honor"...both of which evidently, completely elude you, ...precludes your narcicisstic crap from being taken even the least bit seriously.

I was priveleged to spend a couple of decades in service, full or "part time" 😉.....and..within ALL conversations with comrades therein, and even ANY/ALL research I can even imagine..well...sigh..I just can't seem find the portion of the Oath wherein "I only fight if I feel like it"..."and especially, only where I feel like it" was ever printed. Your "WWII" BS about "when I feel like it"...I won't even dignify.....except to note that that generations' "Hell No!!..You did NOT just attack our Nation and OUR people!!??" and their following, horrible sacrifices, and eventual, total Victory..are a full testament only to the quality of those Americans then present..and has NOTHING to do with your perverse, personal fantasies in any way, shape...or form.

We're done here. I've a limited tolerance for`such morally septic, and fully dishonest and hypocrisy-ridden, utter BS. As for your "WWII..sign me up"...I'd strongly suggest that you share such BS only within your little "liberal" circle...as no one outside of such will buy any such childish/Fantasyland BS for even an instant. You'd run to Canada..and leave another to fight/die in your place?..but...Umm...you'd have magically been a "hero" otherwise?...Umm..Sure Thing sweetie-pie.

Have a nice life...and..in the unlikely event that you'd ever lose any sleep over never actually doing anything yourself?...well...others will protect you, as best that they can. 😉

 

[Redbird]

Many of those that join are from certain places in the South or places like Detroit.

Your assertion is not supported by facts but indicates a stereotype that the Army is composed of uneducated blacks and southern white trash. Wrong.

Recruiting is down, yes. And some scores have declined, yes but overall, the military today is a smarter force, a more educated force and the image of the US sending the uneducated, poor, minority to distant shores is just not accurate. It does, however, sell quite well in the media.

 

[Redbird]

Since I have not had a heart attack till now, does that mean I will not have one tomorrow?

One has to have context to answer that. More info needed but I like Dirty Harry's ability to size up the situation.

[Harry Callahan has to explain why he shot a man]
Harry Callahan: Well, when an adult male is chasing a female with intent to commit rape, I shoot the bastard. That's my policy.
The Mayor: Intent? How did you establish that?
Harry Callahan: When a naked man is chasing a woman through an alley with a butcher's knife and a hard-on, I figure he isn't out collecting for the Red Cross!

There are evil men in the world and unless one wishes to study the darkness of one's orifice and not prepare for possible eventualities, we would be wise to acknowledge that the jihadists have declared war on the west. We can ignore that at our own peril and one thing is sure. Simple people will recite simple solutions with simple analysis. Hindsight bias is alway a process of cherry picking events to prove a point. It discards anything that refutes the original assumption to present a very pristine road. And it leads to circular arguments such as 'he lost situational awareness'. How do you know? "he crashed'. Why did he crash. "He lost situational awareness." Goofy also but it sells.

 

[Redbird]

Can you not see how that might be a tool for recruiting MORE terrorists? I don't worry about the 'camel drivers' over there...I worry about the ones that are here now (since very little money was spent securing our ports). Iraq being "home turf" for bin laden and al qaeda is akin to Iowa being "home turf" in a dispute between Mexico and Canada.

The false argument is our being in Iraq is a recruiting tool as if the jihadists would lay down their arms if we left. That is silly even after a moment's consideration.

The jihadists, OBL and Amadinejad have all said the west is corrupt. The jihadists and OBL declared war on the west. Their ideology and drive is behind the bombings outside of Iraq, in Spain and in London. Amadinejad has said that both the US and Israel will soon be wiped off the face of the earth. And they need little justification to act.

No doubt, there are some hidden cells in the US but our culture is not as accomodating to radicals as possibly France or England. Their 'tolerance' of such radicals will promote the advance of radical Islamic movements at their peril.

Iraq? Again you choose to cherry pick your information using hindsight. Every major intel group thought Saddam had WMDs. Again, almost all the bigwigs in the Clinton years talked about what a threat Saddam was (Clinton, Albright, Biden, Kerry, Kennedy, Schumer, et al). Now, AFTER the fact, they have an revised memory much like Hillary and the snipers. I do not know if they have bad memories or are just incorrigible liars (However, we do know the answer to that one for Hillary).

 

[Gilding the Lily]

Your assertion is not supported by facts but indicates a stereotype that the Army is composed of uneducated blacks and southern white trash. Wrong.

NO, YOU are plain WRONG. It has nothing to do with a stereotype; it is a FACT that many recruits are from the South and places like Detroit. Here are some statistics/facts for you:

In 2002, after the attacks... out of the total recruits for the military that year, 42% were from the SOUTH alone. How does that conflict with my earlier statement: "Many of those that join are from certain places in the South or places like Detroit."

 

[Cosworth]

QUOTE (EastUS @ Jun 6 2008, 11:58 AM)
I think that we can stop right there.........

And yet you don't.

Interesting how during WW II people were breaking all sorts of rules to get in and it does not appear to be the case now or in Viet Nam.

One has to have context to answer that. More info needed but I like Dirty Harry's ability to size up the situation.

Then how about this: Just because we have not been contacted by aliens, does not mean it will not happen tomorrow. We do not know why we have not been contacted yet and we have no way of know whether or not it will or will not happen tomorrow.

This was a general statement to imply that just because something has not happened, there is no guarantee much less any information to support why it has not happened. Why we have not been attacked since 9/11 no one knows. Is it because our fearless leader went into Iraq? Possibly. Did the Russians not use their nukes because we had nukes and would retaliate? Is that why the US did not nuke Russia because we knew that they would retaliate? I would like to think that neither nation would have nuked the other regardless of retaliation because if that is not true, then we have some real morons in power.

I would argue that another possible reason why we have not been attacked again is because it may not be needed to attain their goal. First off, we as a nation seem to be terrified of it happening again. That in and of it's self means the first attack was very successful. Our fearless leader after going into Afghanistan and doing what needed/should have been done decided to go on a personal war in Iraq. We took out one of the Taliban/Al-Queda enemies for them. I am sure they were quite happy about that. We have stretched our millitary to it's breaking point so that if a real conflict arises, we will not be able to address it. Our country is torn apart by all the lies and BS coming out of the White House. Our civil rights are slowly being taken away. Our economy is going down the toilet. The ME oil selling countries are getting rich beyond their wildest dreams. Our international standing has been destroyed. Why would the ME screw up a good thing by attacking us now? With one attack and our own stupidity, they seem to have marginalized the US in one fell swoop.

 

[EastUS]

And yet you don't.

Interesting how during WW II people were breaking all sorts of rules to get in and it does not appear to be the case now or in Viet Nam.

And..were it WWII?..you'd be amongst the last "Four F's" to even imagine actually, EVER endangering yourself. You'd run from combat, and be "fine", as you've stated via Canada, with having another/others fight and quite possibly die in your place. Smarm away your BS to your fellow liberal "heroes", huddled around ritualistic, mutual support groups/coffee shops/etc...as any actually respectable people will never have you to table. As I said = We're Done. Live your sad life as you will. How anyone faces even a shaving mirror's up to themselves...apparently.

 

[EastUS]

NO, YOU are plain WRONG. It has nothing to do with a stereotype; it is a FACT that many recruits are from the South and places like Detroit.

"...from the South" Well!..What an utterly "bad thing" then!!. Given that the most elite units within the US Forces, and certainly the Army, are all based in the south...well..that's just "terrible"!!. I think that at least both the 82nd and 101st Airborne Divisions should IMMEDIATELY be moved into a more "intellectually elite" region!!! What a horrible region to seek soldiers within! What leaders did the south ever produce!?..Oh!..Well.... Washington for one, and if you had the slightest historical clues..the list is almost endless...no matter= let's just stop this pathetically, patronizing idiocy right here.

"...and places like Detroit"..Sweetie?..I've known Detroit-produced car bumpers that have more wit and conversational relevance than you're currently offering.

 

[Cosworth]

As I said = We're Done.

And yet you still continue.

 

[EastUS]

And yet you still continue.

"And..were it WWII?..you'd be amongst the last "Four F's" to even imagine actually, EVER endangering yourself. You'd run from combat, and be "fine", as you've stated via Canada, with having another/others fight and quite possibly die in your place. Smarm away your BS to your fellow liberal "heroes", huddled around ritualistic, mutual support groups/coffee shops/etc...as any actually respectable people will never have you to table. As I said = We're Done. Live your sad life as you will. How anyone faces even a shaving mirror's up to themselves...apparently."

 

[Gilding the Lily]

"...from the South" Well!..What an utterly "bad thing" then!!. Given that the most elite units within the US Forces, and certainly the Army, are all based in the south...well..that's just "terrible"!!. I think that at least both the 82nd and 101st Airborne Divisions should IMMEDIATELY be moved into a more "intellectually elite" region!!! What a horrible region to seek soldiers within! What leaders did the south ever produce!?..Oh!..Well.... Washington for one, and if you had the slightest historical clues..the list is almost endless...no matter= let's just stop this pathetically, patronizing idiocy right here.

"...and places like Detroit"..Sweetie?..I've known Detroit-produced car bumpers that have more wit and conversational relevance than you're currently offering.

What are you even talking about??? Who ever said that seeking recruits from the south is bad?!????

BTW... it is humorous that YOU are discussing relevance. Where do you come up with this stuff???

 

[Redbird]

In 2002, after the attacks... out of the total recruits for the military that year, 42% were from the SOUTH alone. How does that conflict with my earlier statement: "Many of those that join are from certain places in the South or places like Detroit."

A further breakdown...

http://www.heritage.org/Research/NationalS...cda05-08_t5.gif

http://www.heritage.org/research/nationals...ty/cda05-08.cfm

 

[Gilding the Lily]

A further breakdown...

http://www.heritage.org/Research/NationalS...cda05-08_t5.gif

http://www.heritage.org/research/nationals...ty/cda05-08.cfm

Thanks for the links, Redbird. Not only do they provide insightful information, they both show that my statement of "many of those that join are from certain places in the South" was, indeed, correct.

The relevant part of the first link: in 1999, 42.2% of enlisted recruits were from the South and in 2003, 41.1% of enlisted recruits were from the South.

The relevant part of the second link: "The South is overrepresented among military recruits."