Atsb Loan

[FLYLOW22]

I guess UAL thought they had the "wink and a nod" from the Loan Board that getting the money was no big thang.

I can hear the excerpts from the loan board presentations now.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
ATSB- what is your business plan UAL?

UAL- blah TED blah TED blah TED...... (translation... none).

ATSB- That isn't a plan.

UAL- Well... you can't let us die. We're UNITED after all!!!! (panic throughout the room).

ATSB- (crickets sound off in the background for a few seconds). WATCH US!

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Career expectations...... fading into the sunset.... :down:

Ain't no such thang as career expectations.

Never has been.


ONE THING THIS INDUSTRY HAS NO SHORTAGE OF IS BAD MANAGEMENT.

 

[Busdrvr]

"Career expectations...... fading into the sunset....

Ain't no such thang as career expectations.

Never has been.


ONE THING THIS INDUSTRY HAS NO SHORTAGE OF IS BAD MANAGEMENT."

Or apparently a$$holes.... how's that 400 F/O position working for you Flylow?

 

[Bizman]

How's that 400 F/O position working for you Flylow?

It beats being on Furlough

 

[Busdrvr]

It beats being on Furlough

Actually Biz, Flylow IS furloughed (from U) and has been for a VERY long time. He was one of those "mouthpieces" that muddied the water with respect to UAL's aquisition of U. He spent his days and nights taunting UAL pilots about how he was going to use his supreme level of seniority (1998) at U to DOH himself into a 747-400, thus displacing UAL employees. If there is anomosity between the groups, Mr. Class himself (flylow) was one of the biggest drivers of it.

 

[767jetz]

If there is anomosity between the groups, Mr. Class himself (flylow) was one of the biggest drivers of it.

Amen to that, brother!

 

[BillLumbergh]

No ad hominems

 

[Busdrvr]

No ad hominems

What does Grits have to do with it?

 

[mweiss]

What does Grits have to do with it?

Just that they're not accepting any advertizements of it.

 

[TJoe]

United Finds Little Sympathy
Among Middle Seat Readers
June 22, 2004


Last week, the Middle Seat looked at how discount carriers were attacking struggling incumbents right in the heart – their own hubs. It turned out to be a very timely topic because less than 48 hours later, the Air Transportation Stabilization Board rejected the latest application for federal loan guarantees from UAL Corp.'s United Airlines.


United is trying again this week, and since we all know that in politics, things aren't necessarily over even when all the votes are counted, the nation's No. 2 airline may yet win government assistance for its restructuring.


Many readers shed no tears for the predicament in which both United and US Airways Group Inc. find themselves. (As always, letters have been edited for length and style.)


John A. Olson: "I cheered this morning when I read that the federal government denied United's $1.6 billion rescue loan request. … The irony, of course, is that I fly United all the time and have a couple hundred thousand points as a United frequent flyer. So why do I hate them? Arrogance -- there's so much about the major airlines to hate (I'll define the majors as being other than the low-cost carriers). I'm tired of their surly staff:  gate agents, ticket agents, flight attendants. And just having a pilot show his smiling face at the cockpit door as I deplane doesn't change the fact that it's been a miserable experience interacting with the many faces of United throughout the transaction.


Airline fares are one particularly strong complaint from Mr. Olson. "Even when filtered through a pretty interface like Orbitz or Travelocity, the entire process is still absurd and I feel violated every time I have to buy an airline ticket on a major. Saturday stay makes the whole flight cheaper ... who invented that rule and why should it be?  Cheaper to fly from D.C. to LA than from D.C. to Columbus, Ohio ... 'splain that to me, please. The fare was $269 yesterday, why is it $584 for the same flight today?''


He also wonders why untrained customers can check themselves in, change seats and check bags at a self-service kiosk in about 30 seconds, but it still takes a ticket-counter agent "about four minutes to do the same thing? From where I sit it's a software problem, but then I can't see the screen that it takes him/her 8,000 keystrokes to navigate through."


William Pickard: "There is too much capacity in the industry anyway, so the failure of loan guarantees is probably not a bad thing. The survivors will be airlines like Southwest, AirTran, and the others. Delta, United, and American -- and their managements and (thank the Lord) their unions (with their Jurassic managements) with them will dry up and blow away. We'll be left with a vibrant, competitive transportation market."


Jason Womack, a road warrior who recently took his 75th flight in 2004 on United, notes that being a United flyer perhaps doesn't have the panache it once did. "I know that I've been holding on to the notion that I'm a "United flyer;" however, I see that edge beginning to dull. A year from now, do I want to say 'I'm a 1K Premier Executive?' Or, 'I saved my company X thousands of dollars by flying smart?' Only time will tell."


Some readers wrote with tales of woe traveling on Atlantic Coast Airlines, a United feeder carrier that is splitting from Mother United and remaking itself into a discount airline, Independence Air, with a pack of regional jets. It's a risky venture, and readers suggested that it will be even trickier given ACA's operating history. After all, in Department of Transportation on-time rankings, Atlantic Coast ranked 17th out of the 17 carriers that reported arrival statistics over the past 12 months.


Al Stubbmann: "I am a 1K, million-miler on United and the worst part of living in Allentown, Pa., is that since 9/11, Allentown became a United Express city and we became completely dependent on Atlantic Coast. … ACA is a real dog operationally. I have never seen less-competent gate agents, generally unconscious flight attendants and unreliable aircraft maintenance. I must say that I am not going to go out of my way to fly on Independence regardless of the fare."


Atlantic Coast says that its operational and customer service problems stem from being so dependent on United, and that once it's free to run its own ship, things will be better. But United has actually been running a much crisper operation for the past year or so. We'll have to wait to see if an unfettered Atlantic Coast can do better as Independence Air.


Have a question about air travel or the airline industry? Write to me at [email protected].

 

[FLYLOW22]

It beats being on Furlough

Actually Biz, Flylow IS furloughed (from U) and has been for a VERY long time. He was one of those "mouthpieces" that muddied the water with respect to UAL's aquisition of U. He spent his days and nights taunting UAL pilots about how he was going to use his supreme level of seniority (1998) at U to DOH himself into a 747-400, thus displacing UAL employees. If there is anomosity between the groups, Mr. Class himself (flylow) was one of the biggest drivers of it.

And the funny thing is that U believed it was a possibility. Otherwise you wouldn't have acted so defensively. So easy to wind up.... The 747 is a dead horse at UAL anyway.

I mean REALLY!! think about the situation with logical glasses on rather than those rose colored UAL glasses you guys are sporting right now (and always).

What chance did many of us at U have of even remaining on either seniority list regardless of the merger outcome. My company was running itself into the ground thinking the marriage would be consumated. So did yours. If we were aquired I would be sure and get furloughed and if there were no merger then I would also likely get axed since my "management" team decided not to steer the ship for over 18 months while they kissed UAL's and DOT's arse.

I still maintain that animosity was begun long before I enterd the fray. Ollie, IFLYJETZ, etc... They were all over the U boards long before FLYLOW.

Alas.... it's water under the bridge. I can't wait to read about the next chapter of UAL.

BTW... Why repaint the airplanes with the new duds? It's not like UAL has extra cash lying around.

 

[magsau]

On the paint issue......I suppose that perhaps you did not stay in the industry or around airplanes long enough to realize that airplanes, like houses, boats, fences etc are not painted once in a lifetime. In fact most aircraft are painted by the airlines every five years. (ever notice that DL has about 3-4 paint jobs floating around?) The reason for the repaint? Exposure to high speeds, weather and UV breaks down the paint. Without paint or polish the airframe can be damaged. Therefore something has to be done. Now in the case of UAL. The aircraft that are being painted are only going on the regular schedule to be painted and NO we are not just painting to paint. The new paint scheme will hopefully not absorb so much heat when on the ground and allow the airplanes to remain cooler and the high visibility white will be welcome change for low visi. operations.

Similarly US has stripped the paint off a couple of 737's. I understand this was due to lap joint inspection requirements. However, does that not cost money? And are they not using taxpayer money (ATSB) to do this type of work? Should you not be outraged? <_<

 

[FLYLOW22]

Hey Maggie,

Good to hear from you again. Now that I think of it... I haven't seen alot of mainline UA planes repainted. Lots of CRJ-700s, EMB-145s, CRJ-200s.

Seriously.. what is UAL going to do to survive sans ATSB loan? If TED is to be utilized effectively then the ENTIRE airline must be TED. Low cost units within a high cost monster never work. Never.

 

[magsau]

Flylow,

One of the missunderstandings about TED is that it is completely different from maninline. On the pilots side the 737 and all A320's operate under the TED contract. That is to say all those pilots work with a higher flight cap versus the mainline (95ted/89Mainline). There are No trip or duty rigs on any of the 737's or A320 flying. Reserves on the LCC contract get 10 days off versus 12 on mainline. (mainline being the 757/767,777 and 400) The company gets its gravy on TED from the increase in number of seats versus the mainline configuration, reduced turn times and higher aircraft utilization. IMO, you will see more and more of the mainline flying turned into TED. However, the business markets that can derive First Class revenue will continue to be mainline, just my opinion.

 

[whatkindoffreshhell]

WSJ article today (excerpt):

United must still contend with the opposition of Federal Reserve Gov Edward Gramlich, a board member who has said that any resubmission must be analyzed by the board's staff, a process that could take a month. In addition, only Mr. Grammlich has authority to call a meeting, which could delay the process further. Moreover, if the board reverses its decisions, other airlines could challenge that decision and tie the loan guarantee up in federal court, airline lobbyists say.

The fat lady was unavailable for comment.

 

[magsau]

"Moreover, if the board reverses its decisions, other airlines could challenge that decision and tie the loan guarantee up in federal court, airline lobbyists say."

Airlines like FRNT, ATA and AMW that all received "Federal Bailouts" will most likely make noise. The function of the ATSB has been lost in the political volley ball that is this country.

When the ATSB says "you are in too good of shape to need the loan", followed by "you can resubmit if you make changes" makes one wonder why the double talk? Should UAL give pay raises to make things look worse so we "need" the loan or should be cut more to make us need the loan even less?

The ATSB along with GWB are one political machine. Unless UAL is hiding WMD (alleged) or offer contracts to Haliburton the political climate will mean no loan.